Twingo Adey's Twingo GT (F4R+T 2.0ltr engine swap)

[Steve Swan]

Would be interesting to know if the block has the same basic bolt spacing as the old C1J type blocks.

 

[Adey]

Would be interesting to know if the block has the same basic bolt spacing as the old C1J type blocks.

i can certainly take some pics. the gearbox is a JH3 if you fancy a google to see mounting point locations. the starter is definitely in a different position though.

 

[andybond]

225
inlet cam 8200038042
exh cam 8200374007
rods 7701478497

Laguna GT205 BG1Y
inlet cam 8200038042
eh cam 8200911103 superseded by 8200038040
rods 7701478497


different pistons and exhaust cams but the same compression ratio?

Sounds about right , yes
What turbo is on the 205? TD04-14T?

 

[Adey]

Sounds about right , yes
What turbo is on the 205? TD04-14T?

yep Mitsubishi td04 14t with a part number on the rear housing of 77-12807085

 

[andybond]

yep Mitsubishi td04 14t with a part number on the rear housing of 77-12807085

Thats a good thing. Lots of them about and easy to upgrade to the 15T ( or larger ) if needed.

Assume its also a SAGEM3000?

 

[Adey]

it has got a sagem s3000 attached to the loom too yeah, though i don't have the car side of things (uch and stuff)

 

[Steve Swan]

i can certainly take some pics. the gearbox is a JH3 if you fancy a google to see mounting point locations. the starter is definitely in a different position though.

Taking pics would be great. I was thinking more like fiting a C1J flywheel to the new motor and fitting it up to the original transaxle, The 1600 16v motor from a Megane or Clio will fit into a Renault 8 using the original 8 type flywheel. The block bolt spacings are the same and the crank flange bolt pattern is the same new and old.

 

[DaveL485]

And once you've got this sorted, you can put the Twingo lump in the Dope. I like it, a plan with no drawbacks, and no ugly left over bits! Interesting that the limiting factor is the Exhaust cam. Obviously there will be some ECU differences , is this sort of thing re-writeable or does it need something changed or some kinda add-on. Excuse my last century lack of understanding of this aspect.

I did suggest this too but he's a finger lickin' chicken!

@Moggy might have more info on the differences between the 205/225 engines.

 

[Adey]

I did suggest this too but he's a finger lickin' chicken!

@Moggy might have more info on the differences between the 205/225 engines.

itd be too modern of engine, i like the old pushrods and carbs

Spent hours on the parts system as per my previous posts. They are near enough the same. There's exh cam and piston differences between all the meg and laguna 205/225/230 engines. Map is probably/likely the only real difference.

 

[Adey]

R26 CM2H

Exh cam 8200374007

Pistons 8200264983



225 3 door CM0M

Exh cam 8200911103

Pistons 8200264983



225 5 door BM0M

Exh cam 8200911103

Pistons 8200264983



CM1V IS 3dr 225 WITH CUP PACK

Exh cam 8200374007

Pistons 8200264983



BM1V IS 5dr 225 WITH CUP PACK

Exh cam 8200374007

Pistons 8200264983



Laguna 205 hatch BG0T

Exh cam 8200374007

Pistons 8200264983



Laguna 205 Break/estate KG0T

Exh cam 8200374007

Pistons 8200264983

 

[Steve Swan]

What would the Piston difference be? could it have a higher deck height for more comp? As the Exhaust cam is different, are the Ex cutouts bigger (deeper) for clearance on overlap? are they better quality Forged instead of cast? So many questions, so little time. I know, I know, I should shut up and get back into my own workshop and worry about my own problems. That's a life's work on it's own.

 

[DaveL485]

I know, I know, I should shut up

Because filling head with unnecessary detail and garbage about Renault chod is life.

 

[Adey]

strangely after collating it all only the 175bhp version seems to have the different pistons so nothing for me to worry about. the 175bhp is higher compression from what I can find so must be the piston heights

also strange that the 225 non cup seems to have different exhaust cams to the cup packed cars, r26 and laguna

either way longs the engines sounds im happy fingers crossed .

 

[Sparkysparks]

Interesting you should start this conversion as I was just trying to research it yesterday. I found not much. I will like this cars form alot.

 

[andybond]

also strange that the 225 non cup seems to have different exhaust cams to the cup packed cars, r26 and laguna

Isnt that interesting?

The comp rates are all the same though - 9.0:1

 

[Adey]

Isnt that interesting?

The comp rates are all the same though - 9.0:1

ive never been up on the meg thing, were they known for being different or performing better/worse?

 

[andybond]

ive never been up on the meg thing, were they known for being different or performing better/worse?

No. My knowledge only extends to the 225/230, but they are literally a few PS different in power. Both respond identically as well to mapping / mods.

 

[Adey]

So here's the plan, Some SW PMT work in effect. Using mainly Renault parts and as few custom parts as possible I plan to drop an f4rt engine in the Twingo. The engine was had for a bargain and tbh, if I hadn't found it I wouldn't be doing this swap. Using the parts database I've been able to look up a fair few parts and cross reference them with others to see what will/should fit. And using my previously acquired pikey skills I plan to make it work. Now there are better ways to go about this but I'm doing this on the cheap and keeping it relatively simple and easy to fit. Many many hours have been spent seeing what should fit though and keep the costs right down.

Take one f4rt turbo engine, modify a 172 cambelt cover to not fowl the belt and then fit the 172 upper engine mount as per the pic. The meg cover is wider and the 172 upper mount doesn't fit it correctly.
Next will be fit a flywheel and clutch (for alignment) from a clio3/megane2 1.5dci, this looks like it will fit up to the crank fine and looks like it uses the standard Renault 215mm, 26 spline clutch disk. This should allow me to run any Clio 172 uprated friction disk. This should also mate up nicely to the JR5 DCI 5 speed gearbox.
Now as I have done previously I will be fitting a 172 sump and re drilling the block to accept the 5 speed box. The JR5 box looks to be a newer/updated version of the old JC5 except it has a cable shift and hydro clutch arrangement. This should mate up to my current Twingo GT setup the box also has the same style driveshafts as the GT so they should slot right into place too meaning no expensive custom driveshafts. The diesel box has also been selected for its ratios as the turbo engine revs low compared to some of the petrol's. It should be similar gear to output as the old ph1 172 089 box bar 5th where it will have some 150+mph legs...
All of this will be ran on a remapped GT ECU.
Obviously all of this could fall apart if my internet research has been poor but with Renault being Renault most parts are semi interchangeable.

Hopefully once the flywheel and box are here I can drop it in the hole for a test fit and if all is good ill move along with it all. Give me a few months to work through it but it should all be good.

Now I'm not going for mad power in this as I want to keep everything in one piece and keep the costs screwed down, I think id like 230 to 250bhp at the end of it, which should shift the car along nicely and keep it reliable. I've ran the old JC5 boxes at 230+ftlb and 280bhp previously and quite a few of the turbo 172/182 people have ran more. That said plenty of Renault boxes shit a frisbee at stock power levels lol

Wish me luck.

 

[andybond]

Double checking - F4R 774 engine, right? Gets confusing as people refer to this engine cos it says FART for the 250/265/275 engine with the VVT as well.

 

[Adey]

possibly the 784 supplied for the laguna but a non vvt f4r with a turbo