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v6Max Clio Build Stuff
- Thread starter v6Max
- Start date
ed_harland
Member
Steering column bracket ?
Oldskoolbaby":37epf77v said:
Sort of - it's the casing for a redesigned gear shift mechanism. I need to take some pictures of the prototype to show how it looks put together.
It's designed to fit into the console I made and should allow me to adjust the amount of throw required to change gear. It's been a nightmare trying to get it sorted out as once again my faith in others has been severely tested (I really should give up).
It was cut on a somewhat more capable machine than mine but the person who did it managed to cut all the holes too large which was a pain because they're designed to accept an oilite bushing. The two large holes at the back carry the bellcrank axel and he managed to drill them out of line so the axel locks if it's pushed (forced) through both.
Having said that it was a prototype, so I gave up with the person concerned, brought a lathe and made all the little axels up myself and put it together. Needs some more work but my motivation is at an all time low.
On the engine front, another optimistic estimation of time to dyno has been given. The inlet has been fabricated and I know have ITBs mated to a modified Trophy plenum.
I could write lots more but the outcome of over 6 years of waiting is still a non funcitoning car that's spent more time on axel stands than on wheels. Yes I will bail out of the project this year because I've got too much going on in the non Clio bubble and need to think about setting up a new business.
If I ever do anything like this again (and that's a big if) I'd never rely on other people apart from subcontrating work within a very tight and agreed schedule. All of the delays, disappointments and cost have been the result of 3rd parties which is a never ending source of frustration to me.
I can't even just blame the people working on the engine; the people who made the brake discs quoted 3 weeks and took 6 months which included 3 attempts to get them right despite having an OEM disc to use for measurements (+- 5mm tolerance is not acceptable on a PCD). The people who made the servo said 2 weeks and took 8 months and then randomly increased the cost by £100. The people who make the PDD system promised a home programming capability 3 years ago; it's still not been delivered.
The industry seems beset with people who simply cannot tell the truth, make accurate estimates of lead times or can manage a project properly. I hear the excuse "we're waiting for X that's why we've not done anything for 3 months" and I can't help wondering why they don't work on Y which has no dependance on X whatsoever but I guess that merely serves to illustrate just how poor project management capability is within the industry at the sub £1 million level!
I feared the worse when things went quiet on the Max front. 
I've got to say that your Vee is/was such a mouth-watering prospect...
...you've been building the Vee that TWR/Renaultsport should've!
I share your frustration. :evil:
In terms of %completion, where do you think you are?
I've got to say that your Vee is/was such a mouth-watering prospect...
...you've been building the Vee that TWR/Renaultsport should've!
I share your frustration. :evil:
In terms of %completion, where do you think you are?
Kett":2tilimjc said:
The engine is about 95% complete - latest estimate is end of this month to go on the dyno. So going on past experience I'd expect it to be on the dyno towards June/July.
I've left this thread alone simply because I've not done anything to the car - I kind of realised last year that no matter how much time, effort and money I throw at it the rate limiting step is all the other people involved. I can't justify the potential fiscal risk, I'm in pretty deep now and it would hurt to walk away, but making that hole deeper by fitting the extinguisher system, the seats, the bodywork etc seems unwise until I actually have a working engine.
Rest assured that if/when the engine finally makes it onto the dyno and the day does not end with me watching parts of a 6 year project travelling at high speed outside of the dyno cell I will have video and photos
v6Max":2b0yl2uc said:Rest assured that if/when the engine finally makes it onto the dyno and the day does not end with me watching parts of a 6 year project travelling at high speed outside of the dyno cell I will have video and photos
I've been watching this space avidly for 6 years - it has been an epic! :approve:
Ok I've rejoined the club to post this...
It's now coming up for 7 years and I've finally given up with the project. I did think my tenacity and patience would be rewarded but the harsh reality is that I'm really no further forward than I was 2 years ago or 3, 4, 5 years ago so whilst it pains me to do so I'm scrapping the car.
Over these pages I'm sure it's become clear the sort of things I've had to deal with combined with a clear drive on my behalf to learn about and do more and more things myself. Ultimately though the car is useless without an engine (I've tried a pedal conversion but even with modern Shimano gearing it's not tenable).
I've learnt a lot and there's some "value" in all that money I've spent - I knew nothing about cars, engineering before I started and as I end the project I have a well equipped workshop, know entirely too much about wiring and MilSpec connectors and have a much better understanding of engineering.
I've designed and made the console, new gear selector mechanism, plates, loom etc etc and that has been knowledge and experience which I can take forward onto another project.
The next thing, and there will be another, will be something I can do all the work on myself; There's a "disease" endemic within the tuning/motorsport industry and it's one founded on the notion that it's best to tell people what they want to hear and underestimating timescales and costs by months, years and thousands is acceptable. They do it to themselves and they do it to customers.
There are some companies I can recommend; Beru F1, Polevolt, Think Automotive and that's it. I'll respect any prevailing name and shame rules by just saying that every other company I've dealt with has varied between mildly poor to so awful they really should be sued by me.
Now with all that said, and with an apology for the bitterness that may seem evident, the following bits and pieces will be available:
KW Variant 3 suspension - I fitted new springs, height adjusters and a full set of new bolts (the details are somewhere in this thread)
K-Tec solid topmounts (bolt through strut not the difficult to tighten Compomotive design)
Pedal box - fits on existing brake servo and gives you 2 separate master cylinders; one for front, one for rear with a bar allowing you to adjust the bias. The master cylinders are AP units
Trophy rear subframe (bolt on replacement but you will need to sort out the driveshafts as the connection to the hub is different). This subframe is stronger, rose-jointed and has a much better TCA arrangement
Full set of rear suspsension from MK1 car - so trailing and lower arms, hubs
New radiator
Front subframe
Fuel tank
Front wings, rear quarters
GRP rear tailgate - painted in iceberg silver with quick release fittings and fitted with lexan
Duck tail spoiler - not the light-weight, thin version, the proper, sturdy decent one
4 x original Mk 1 alloys with knackered tyres
4 x OZ split rims + spacers to fit (silver/bright outer, anthracite inners)
Mk1 gearbox
Quicksilver exhaust (need to double check it's not disappeared)
Equal length headers - may be useful to someone who is considering a project
Sparco Group N steering wheel quick release system + OMP boss to suit (allows you to fit a standard 6 bolt steering wheel and release it from the column by pulling a collar towards you)
Carbon/Kevlar trophy front splitter - it's functional rather than pretty but is the real thing
I'm just looking for realistic offers and you need to come and collect if at all possible. The shell itself complete with it's T45 cage is going to be scrapped unless someone really wants to take it away.
It's now coming up for 7 years and I've finally given up with the project. I did think my tenacity and patience would be rewarded but the harsh reality is that I'm really no further forward than I was 2 years ago or 3, 4, 5 years ago so whilst it pains me to do so I'm scrapping the car.
Over these pages I'm sure it's become clear the sort of things I've had to deal with combined with a clear drive on my behalf to learn about and do more and more things myself. Ultimately though the car is useless without an engine (I've tried a pedal conversion but even with modern Shimano gearing it's not tenable).
I've learnt a lot and there's some "value" in all that money I've spent - I knew nothing about cars, engineering before I started and as I end the project I have a well equipped workshop, know entirely too much about wiring and MilSpec connectors and have a much better understanding of engineering.
I've designed and made the console, new gear selector mechanism, plates, loom etc etc and that has been knowledge and experience which I can take forward onto another project.
The next thing, and there will be another, will be something I can do all the work on myself; There's a "disease" endemic within the tuning/motorsport industry and it's one founded on the notion that it's best to tell people what they want to hear and underestimating timescales and costs by months, years and thousands is acceptable. They do it to themselves and they do it to customers.
There are some companies I can recommend; Beru F1, Polevolt, Think Automotive and that's it. I'll respect any prevailing name and shame rules by just saying that every other company I've dealt with has varied between mildly poor to so awful they really should be sued by me.
Now with all that said, and with an apology for the bitterness that may seem evident, the following bits and pieces will be available:
KW Variant 3 suspension - I fitted new springs, height adjusters and a full set of new bolts (the details are somewhere in this thread)
K-Tec solid topmounts (bolt through strut not the difficult to tighten Compomotive design)
Pedal box - fits on existing brake servo and gives you 2 separate master cylinders; one for front, one for rear with a bar allowing you to adjust the bias. The master cylinders are AP units
Trophy rear subframe (bolt on replacement but you will need to sort out the driveshafts as the connection to the hub is different). This subframe is stronger, rose-jointed and has a much better TCA arrangement
Full set of rear suspsension from MK1 car - so trailing and lower arms, hubs
New radiator
Front subframe
Fuel tank
Front wings, rear quarters
GRP rear tailgate - painted in iceberg silver with quick release fittings and fitted with lexan
Duck tail spoiler - not the light-weight, thin version, the proper, sturdy decent one
4 x original Mk 1 alloys with knackered tyres
4 x OZ split rims + spacers to fit (silver/bright outer, anthracite inners)
Mk1 gearbox
Quicksilver exhaust (need to double check it's not disappeared)
Equal length headers - may be useful to someone who is considering a project
Sparco Group N steering wheel quick release system + OMP boss to suit (allows you to fit a standard 6 bolt steering wheel and release it from the column by pulling a collar towards you)
Carbon/Kevlar trophy front splitter - it's functional rather than pretty but is the real thing
I'm just looking for realistic offers and you need to come and collect if at all possible. The shell itself complete with it's T45 cage is going to be scrapped unless someone really wants to take it away.
Hi Max,
Your posts and threads have been a joy and inspiration to read for us all and I can see both your frustration and also the satisfaction you have had with this project.
It is a shame you cannot bring yourself to complete the project, for some of the reasons you mention, but I can understand you have reached this decision point and things like this happen to us all - maybe not always to this extreme or in a 'motoring' context.
Looks like there are some great opportunities for people to benefit from your knowledge and engineering in what you have posted and what will be available for sale ...
It would be a travesty if the shell got scrapped, not least of all as there won't be many available and certainly not with 'that' cage in it ... I would expect/hope someone to snap that up fairly quickly even if it's to save it from being turned into razor blades.
Regards and all the best for your next project :approve:
Martin
Your posts and threads have been a joy and inspiration to read for us all and I can see both your frustration and also the satisfaction you have had with this project.
It is a shame you cannot bring yourself to complete the project, for some of the reasons you mention, but I can understand you have reached this decision point and things like this happen to us all - maybe not always to this extreme or in a 'motoring' context.
Looks like there are some great opportunities for people to benefit from your knowledge and engineering in what you have posted and what will be available for sale ...
It would be a travesty if the shell got scrapped, not least of all as there won't be many available and certainly not with 'that' cage in it ... I would expect/hope someone to snap that up fairly quickly even if it's to save it from being turned into razor blades.
Regards and all the best for your next project :approve:
Martin
Thanks Martin.
The shell is "ok" - I'd give the cage a range of marks from 5 to 10 out 10. Some parts are really nicely welded other parts may have been welded by my mother after she's had to much Pinot Grigo. No questioning the strength though and the improvement it made to the slightly floppy chassis.
The shell is "ok" - I'd give the cage a range of marks from 5 to 10 out 10. Some parts are really nicely welded other parts may have been welded by my mother after she's had to much Pinot Grigo. No questioning the strength though and the improvement it made to the slightly floppy chassis.
iolin:I wanted to bring this to a close with a post more in the style of the opening ones in this thread, something a little more about the "soft" issues around these things rather than a list of parts for sale.
So firstly the decision; it's been like breaking up with a wife, girlfriend. A decision which was both head and heart and one which took time to make and you sense that either way would be somewhat painful. In the end it came down to a week of clarity during which 2 things happened; one which sorted the "head" side of the decision and the other the "heart":
Head 7th July 2012 marked the commencement of the 7th year of the engine in the workshop. It went in with a promise that it would be done in 6 weeks and that I'd spend £1200. I've spent £7000 and waited 7 years and in that time had no car to drive. Simple really
Heart 10th July 2012. The car needed to come off axle stand so I could move it out of the garage to allow room for a new lathe to be delivered. I rolled it out with a couple of friends and I just knew that the love affair was over. It sat in the sun looking dusty, mismatched doors, wiring hanging down, no front and rear bumpers and that was it; I felt nothing
Alongside these 2 things was a growing sense that the car was becoming a millstone of epic proportions; I've moved 4 times since it's been a project, my choices of where to live and the logistics involved with each of those moves have been dictated by the car. The car occupied a lot of "cycles" - thinking about what I needed to do, what others needed to do and all the time that nagging sense at the back of my mind that no matter what I did I wasn't the deciding factor in the project's success.
Ok so indulge me a little more as I talk a little about the reality, financial, of a project such as this:
Modifying cars to this extent is not a cheap hobby and it's also not, as this thread so clearly highlights, a guarateed success. You need to be realistic about things and the most important thing to understand is that you're basically throwing money down a hole. No matter how much better, how much shinier, how much faster etc you will not get more for the car. If you take it to these extremes then you do it for "love" and need to accept the the object of your affection will be worth a fraction of the money, time and effort you put into it.
Of course anyone can say that and most of us will have heard it from friends, parents etc but here's some proper hard data for you:
Total direct cost of this project (so car purchase, parts brought and labour bills): 38.5k
Total indirect cost of this project (consumables, tooling, moving, EoL FIA parts): 12k (a significant chunk of this is tooling which fortunately still retains its value and will not be sold as part of the project closure)
I'd estimate that if the project had completed the car would have been worth around 8k. Just look at what MikeT managed to get for his car and never lose site of the fact that the market for the v6 is small, for modified v6 is even smaller and the market for highly modified/track prepared ones is about 3 people in the Uk.
I made several mistakes but the key ones I can think of which I think are really worth highlighting to anyone thinking of embarking on a similar adventure are:
1) I became a friend of the person doing the work on the car. Once you're a friend you're no longer a customer. You're ability to shout, complain, set expectations, be "selfish" is completely eliminated/compromised when you're a friend. It may only be a one sided friendship but it doesn't matter. Be friendly but don't be a friend = you will regret it
2) I paid for work up-front and when not up-front within seconds of being presented an invoice. Pay for work when it's been done, pay for parts when you can see them, set stages at which you will pay e.g. engine fully built, engine installed. If you don't do this a few things happen; I've got something approaching 3k of parts I've paid for but which I know do not exist. I've paid for all the work to be done on my engine but the last time I paid any money was 2 years ago - what motivation do you think there is for the people to do any work today? They've had the money, any time spent now is "non-billable"
The industry, this is 100% not confined to the particular people I worked with, is unable to manage projects - you need to accept this and understand that this means you're going to need to do it; this is why you need to set stages.
You will also find that the industry has at it's core an ethos that is about telling you, the customer, what they think you want to hear. They know that if they promise that it'll be 300bhp and worth the wait you'll say Ok. The know that if they say it's going to be roughly X cheaper, Y better and Z sooner then you'll say Ok. You need to find someone who tells it like it is, who isn't trying to flatter you.
The future
My love of cars has not been diminished by this experience and neither has my desire to modify, improve and personalise them. Any money recovered from this project is going into a pot which will be used to fund the purchase of something silly, impractical and with a bike engine powering it.
This new "thing" will not be allowed to spend it's life on axel stands and I'll not be taking the engine out and handing it over to someone and then justifying years of development.
It's time to get back on track, time to got to Tescos in a silly car just because I can and time to drive long distances and see the look on peoples faces when they hear how far you've come and see you climbing out of the car.
So firstly the decision; it's been like breaking up with a wife, girlfriend. A decision which was both head and heart and one which took time to make and you sense that either way would be somewhat painful. In the end it came down to a week of clarity during which 2 things happened; one which sorted the "head" side of the decision and the other the "heart":
Head 7th July 2012 marked the commencement of the 7th year of the engine in the workshop. It went in with a promise that it would be done in 6 weeks and that I'd spend £1200. I've spent £7000 and waited 7 years and in that time had no car to drive. Simple really
Heart 10th July 2012. The car needed to come off axle stand so I could move it out of the garage to allow room for a new lathe to be delivered. I rolled it out with a couple of friends and I just knew that the love affair was over. It sat in the sun looking dusty, mismatched doors, wiring hanging down, no front and rear bumpers and that was it; I felt nothing
Alongside these 2 things was a growing sense that the car was becoming a millstone of epic proportions; I've moved 4 times since it's been a project, my choices of where to live and the logistics involved with each of those moves have been dictated by the car. The car occupied a lot of "cycles" - thinking about what I needed to do, what others needed to do and all the time that nagging sense at the back of my mind that no matter what I did I wasn't the deciding factor in the project's success.
Ok so indulge me a little more as I talk a little about the reality, financial, of a project such as this:
Modifying cars to this extent is not a cheap hobby and it's also not, as this thread so clearly highlights, a guarateed success. You need to be realistic about things and the most important thing to understand is that you're basically throwing money down a hole. No matter how much better, how much shinier, how much faster etc you will not get more for the car. If you take it to these extremes then you do it for "love" and need to accept the the object of your affection will be worth a fraction of the money, time and effort you put into it.
Of course anyone can say that and most of us will have heard it from friends, parents etc but here's some proper hard data for you:
Total direct cost of this project (so car purchase, parts brought and labour bills): 38.5k
Total indirect cost of this project (consumables, tooling, moving, EoL FIA parts): 12k (a significant chunk of this is tooling which fortunately still retains its value and will not be sold as part of the project closure)
I'd estimate that if the project had completed the car would have been worth around 8k. Just look at what MikeT managed to get for his car and never lose site of the fact that the market for the v6 is small, for modified v6 is even smaller and the market for highly modified/track prepared ones is about 3 people in the Uk.
I made several mistakes but the key ones I can think of which I think are really worth highlighting to anyone thinking of embarking on a similar adventure are:
1) I became a friend of the person doing the work on the car. Once you're a friend you're no longer a customer. You're ability to shout, complain, set expectations, be "selfish" is completely eliminated/compromised when you're a friend. It may only be a one sided friendship but it doesn't matter. Be friendly but don't be a friend = you will regret it
2) I paid for work up-front and when not up-front within seconds of being presented an invoice. Pay for work when it's been done, pay for parts when you can see them, set stages at which you will pay e.g. engine fully built, engine installed. If you don't do this a few things happen; I've got something approaching 3k of parts I've paid for but which I know do not exist. I've paid for all the work to be done on my engine but the last time I paid any money was 2 years ago - what motivation do you think there is for the people to do any work today? They've had the money, any time spent now is "non-billable"
The industry, this is 100% not confined to the particular people I worked with, is unable to manage projects - you need to accept this and understand that this means you're going to need to do it; this is why you need to set stages.
You will also find that the industry has at it's core an ethos that is about telling you, the customer, what they think you want to hear. They know that if they promise that it'll be 300bhp and worth the wait you'll say Ok. The know that if they say it's going to be roughly X cheaper, Y better and Z sooner then you'll say Ok. You need to find someone who tells it like it is, who isn't trying to flatter you.
The future
My love of cars has not been diminished by this experience and neither has my desire to modify, improve and personalise them. Any money recovered from this project is going into a pot which will be used to fund the purchase of something silly, impractical and with a bike engine powering it.
This new "thing" will not be allowed to spend it's life on axel stands and I'll not be taking the engine out and handing it over to someone and then justifying years of development.
It's time to get back on track, time to got to Tescos in a silly car just because I can and time to drive long distances and see the look on peoples faces when they hear how far you've come and see you climbing out of the car.
Max,
You're absolutely correct that the thread needed 'an epilogue'.
It's gut-wrenching to have seen yours and MikeT's epic projects fallen by the wayside. It's fitting that the histories are captured and can serve to warn others of the potential difficulties.
I'm particularly gutted because this project was going to a 'proper light-weight Vee'. The holy grail.
You're absolutely correct that the thread needed 'an epilogue'.
It's gut-wrenching to have seen yours and MikeT's epic projects fallen by the wayside. It's fitting that the histories are captured and can serve to warn others of the potential difficulties.
I'm particularly gutted because this project was going to a 'proper light-weight Vee'. The holy grail.
Bill patchall
New Member
It still can be.simon
