21 Turbo Head/Turbo/Inlet Upgrade

[Turbjj]

Sorry Liners are 88mm or 88,5mm not 82(stroke).

It would increase the CCM on 4 cylinders from 1995 to 2017, not much... but they are the same price. I have to check out for the wall thickness.

Further I found out that there is a difference in the compression height between "standard" an Europacup Pistons, 40,50 and 38,70, but both listed 8:1 comp.

 

[Red21]

A very quick calculation says that if Eurocup pistions are used on standard rods it potenialy drop the CR to around 7.8:1 (reduces the stroke by 1.8mm) if they have the same crown design as standard pistions.
But think the piston height reduction is so the cylinder block & liners can be machined if there is a problem etc (Deck hieght)

 

[DaveL485]

I guess it's just the grade of metal that differs, more so it's melting point if mapping isn't correct?
I don't know what size the std liners are, larger bore would increase cc if using same pistons/rods and I would use them, unless the wall thickness is smaller than std making them weaker.

82.5 liners? Isn't the OE liner 88.0mm bore? With an 82.0mm stroke. In fact I know it is, as the 2.2 stroke was 89.0mm

 

[Turbjj]

82.5 liners? Isn't the OE liner 88.0mm bore? With an 82.0mm stroke. In fact I know it is, as the 2.2 stroke was 89.0mm

Yes, I wrote the wrong one, 82 = Stroke, 88 = bore
For a 2.2 you need more than 89 liners? You have to use an other crank?

 

[Haz]

I was also under the impression the europacup had lower compression by using a ph1 head with a taller chamber in the head compared to ph2/3. Again I haven't done a lot of research, just what I have on the shelf.
Back in the day Renault seemed to go super low compression, lumpy cams with too much overlap (thus tonnes of boost to make up for it) and not much more revs than std.
Without going into detailed comparisons I see the j7r as just a big c1j which was also tuned differently to modern cars so was applying similar tuning methods, going higher compression, adv the cam and turning the boost up until it stopped making power 2.5-3bar? And revving until it runs out of puff, 72-7500?

 

[DaveL485]

Yes, I wrote the wrong one, 82 = Stroke, 88 = bore
For a 2.2 you need more than 89 liners? You have to use an other crank?

For the 2.2 you need the crank and rods, the crank controls the stroke (82mm 2.0, 89mm 2.2), but the liners are also 5mm longer to accommodate the longer throw.

I was also under the impression the europacup had lower compression by using a ph1 head with a taller chamber in the head compared to ph2/3. Again I haven't done a lot of research, just what I have on the shelf.
Back in the day Renault seemed to go super low compression, lumpy cams with too much overlap (thus tonnes of boost to make up for it) and not much more revs than std.
Without going into detailed comparisons I see the j7r as just a big c1j which was also tuned differently to modern cars so was applying similar tuning methods, going higher compression, adv the cam and turning the boost up until it stopped making power 2.5-3bar? And revving until it runs out of puff, 72-7500?

The J-series is nothing like the C1J, nothing at all. Very different engines. Heads through the J series 2.0 range are the same base castings, even the 2.0NA as far as I have ever seen. All models had the same CR of 8:1, save for the later dizzyless cars were 8.5:1

 

[Haz]

So, "without going into detailed comparisons" and talking about bores and pistons, thus talking about bottom ends, they are both Renault, both wet liners and both crack liners if not tuned correctly. Close enough for me :tongue:

 

[Turbjj]

The liners I have in mind are given for 2.5 bar, the head is good for about 8000revs. I don't really know if 8:1 or 7,8:1 will make a big difference. The Europacup pistons are only available in 88mm.

I'm not planning to build a 2.2L. I'm going to take an original crank with flywheel and alloy damper to the machine shop, to have it lightened an balanced.

 

[Haz]

As a rough guide when mapping .1 compression = 1 degree = 1psi.
Compression is more so how it feels off boost, so the higher it is is usually better. If you use 8:1 you will only be able to use about 2psi less boost or 2 degrees less of advance than 7.8:1 (or 1 degree less and 1psi less), based on mapping it to its safe limit, so not a lot in it really. The choice should be made according to the engine spec and cam profile as to what you want it to do.

Using Europacup as an example, if they ran 7:1 compression and 3bar boost, you 'should' be able to make the same power with 8:1 and 2.3bar boost with the same ignition map (assuming the only difference is pistons)

 

[Turbjj]

Just got the Europacup Cam with the adjustable Pulley from Haz, so I have all the parts to complete the head.
Next I have to get a crank balanced and buy the pistons, connecting rods and the liners (+ gaskets, oilpump etc)
And find some time to work on it

 

[johnspin]

I've got 88.5 duclite liners and forged pistons


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[johnspin]

Plus this inlet


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[jonboy21t]

I've got 88.5 duclite liners and forged pistons


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Not that we'd know as you drive like Miss Daisy.......:laugh:

 

[johnspin]

Lol not fitted yet ..
Plus I don't need to prove anything .....


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[Turbjj]

Nice!!!
Yeah, mine is not fitted to... I have fixed the engine that I'm going to use on an engine stand and washed the car last week, that's it so far No Time, no progress

 

[DaveL485]

ITB's (Throttle bodies) is what ya want chaps....with eight injectors. Overkill is the name of the game

Plenum:

ITB's

 

[Turbjj]

Finally found some Time, the spare engine is stripped, liners, pistons and connecting rods are on the way.
I have polished the Valve Rockers (I think it's called like that ) and reduced the weight from 100 gr each to 92 gr. each.
Further I got special made rings to leave the 4 or 5 springs out between the Valve Rockers and strengthen this up.

I'm planing on ordering some parts on mespiecesauto.fr , they have a stronger and lightened flywheel with uprated clutch and some other interesting parts.
I think it's worth having a look on this site if you can mess with the language

Finally a little progress

 

[Turbjj]

A little update on the new engine project.
I got the liners, the pistons and connecting rods, and some bits. Shiny new stuff
The valve train is finished and put back together. The Oilpump is cleaned, checked and I replaced the spring for a stronger one that I got from Haz
I ordered the Flywheel and clutch kit from Mespiecesauto and a lighter pulley from AXautoparts and got in touch with a local company who are gonna balance this out once installed on the crank.
Yesterday I spend 2 hours sandblasting the block and it looks like a new one
The project is going on as I find some free time here and there, and soon it's time to post some new pics

 

[Turbjj]

http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/turbojj/media/21 Turbo/IMG_1281_zps91a5e159.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

 

[DaveL485]

You have been busy!