5 GT Turbo The Bogey

[jamesc]

Personally i'd make up my own and just buy the CC unit. Bit of pipework, an electric Bosch pump, a motorbike rad some wiring with a relay and you're done.

sounds good to me fella.

I'm getting our lass to draw the manifold & rail up on Autocad or similar, got some 350 cc injectors & that is about where I am at the moment long term (slow) project!

 

[Andyquadra]

Might be a while before I get it sorted but making a start

Can't decide whether to keep the original intercooler or try and get a charge cooler in there. All the kits look expensive and/or too large bore, like this one:

http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=203

4" bore seem massive?? If anyone has any suggestions would be much appreciated

Here we go, this is more my budget.....http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Barrel-in...633?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4d33300449

Still 4" inlet & outlet though

//edit hold on I'm talking out of my arse

the 4" x 6" AVT charge cooler has an inlet/outlet diameter of 57 mm....the 4" must be diameter of the core. Still pricey though or is it a case of you gets what you pay for

Don't bother with those barrel charge coolers, they can't flow enough water to keep them cool. Try looking at Laminova, I know a 2L 12V turbo running one and its very good

Andy

 

[Andyquadra]

Bit of reading for you from an email I had a long time ago


Re: Rear engine use of Generic Bolt On Intercooler?One of the issues with PWR is poor control of the water flowing through the intercooler, you have one feed in and one feed out, the water then has to find its way through. It will always take the path of the least resistance which is the shortest route, this leads to hot spots within the intercooler and areas of poor heat exchange in my opinion. They also use old school heat exchangers which although well constructed are in comparison to the Laminova cores dinosaurs.

Now with one of our units you should be able to hold intake temps to around 10-15C above ambient and flat line at that on a petrol engine through all the gears, for us the intercooler is not the issue they are extremely efficient so much so that our issue is the heat exchanger. Well it’s not so much an issue rather that you just need to make sure it can cope with the intercooler. Luckily enough on a petrol this is not so much of an issue, on the high performance diesel we have done it’s far more critical as they spend 80% of the time on boost as apposed to petrol's that are around 10%.

As for the pipe work, it depends on what suits you best, you can run one single pipe for most of it and split it out to four just before the intercooler or you can run four individual lines. We do a little of both depending on the application. Four lines are easier to bend and manipulate through tight areas, but for my 300Kw off road comp 4x4 I run 2 large fuel grade hoses down the chassis rails to the heat exchanger. Each unit comes with 2 water splitters so you can elect what suits you best.

I would recommend a 4 core generic unit, a little over kill is never a bad thing if you have the space for it.

One of the things I have tried to do with my intercoolers is post hard data online for Pre and Post MAP, Temp and power gains. Most will only tell you how much HP they can handle. HP has nothing to do with cooling ability or how much pressure drop you have across the unit and it is these things that are critical to performance.

Anyway here are a couple of links that may be of interest to read, different applications but as I have said Diesels are far harder, hence the heat exchangers are larger. We currently have a 4 core unit flat lining intake temps at 30PSI on a comp 4x4 out of Perth.

http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24057

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1259403

 

[jamesc]

Don't bother with those barrel charge coolers, they can't flow enough water to keep them cool. Try looking at Laminova, I know a 2L 12V turbo running one and its very good

Andy

Bit of reading for you from an email I had a long time ago...

Thanks chaps, that looks like a very good option to fit in the space of the original IC...lots of close tolerance fabrication work though but means I can decide on a more simple design for the inlet manifold & worry about cooling at a later date.

 

[Andyquadra]

Thanks chaps, that looks like a very good option to fit in the space of the original IC...lots of close tolerance fabrication work though but means I can decide on a more simple design for the inlet manifold & worry about cooling at a later date.

if you can wait until a week Friday, myself and @DaveL485 are going to see the car with the laminova charge cooler , so I'll have a chat and see what other info we can get
Also google advance (hb) intercoolers

 

[jamesc]

if you can wait until a week Friday, myself and @DaveL485 are going to see the car with the laminova charge cooler , so I'll have a chat and see what other info we can get
Also google advance (hb) intercoolers

hehe I'm not very good but I'm slow - I'll be lucky to get anything done a year next Friday. much appreciated for the offer that would be very useful. I was reading the info on the net last night & at first was struggling to get my head around it.

Maybe a core housing could be built to match the shape of the existing intercooler.



No excuse needed to post a pic of it! It's a neat bit of kit - makes nice long runners with the plenum formed by the top/end tank on the IC

 

[Andyquadra]

Maybe a core housing could be built to match the shape of the existing intercooler.

YES, thats the good thing about Laminova, if you buy the cores, you can make it look identical to the original except the water inlets

 

[Andyquadra]

if you look on the threads, they are made as inlet manifolds on aussie diesels that run high boost
They aren't the cheapest, but quality costs

 

[Brigsy]

Good move going efi. I would go single throttle body and fit whatever chargecooler you need to, i imagine there will be plenty of room once the old kjet metering head & assorted bits has gone. Stick a hot cam in there/modern turbo and should make decent hp

 

[andybond]

I am going to be controversial here. If this were my car ( its not I realise that ! ) I would take the engine out that you currently have and possible replace with forged renaultsport megane engine and get some decent power in it that way.

You can then if you sell the car offer a buyer an original engine.

 

[Moggy]

mmmm efi turbo2 ..... where have i heard that before

2002 I think it was......

anyway - yes ditch the intercooler! they actually loose power unless you're doing more than 70mph!

fuel rail really....... hate to say it but the one i used was off a tigra! can't remember which engine or model but it was a perfect fit!

ffs don't chop you're dissy down, try and find buggered one or an old gordini one! the T1 and T2 dissy's are RARE! (and you'll need something there to drive the oil pump

if you get stuck..... ask

if you want a map and are gonna run omex.... I might be able to point you to the guy that did mine before it was de-tuned

Moggy

 

[DaveL485]

if you get stuck..... ask

This. Moggy might be a dick , but he's the bible when it comes to T2's. between him and @sparkie you're about covered!

 

[jamesc]

Good move going efi. I would go single throttle body and fit whatever chargecooler you need to, i imagine there will be plenty of room once the old kjet metering head & assorted bits has gone. Stick a hot cam in there/modern turbo and should make decent hp

Yes mate single TB was in the plan - but maybe 4 could be done between the IC (or CC) and the intake manifold?? Little ones

The cam in it is meant to be a 200 CV kit one but you saw it on the dyno....not quite 200 hp..:/

I am going to be controversial here. If this were my car ( its not I realise that ! ) I would take the engine out that you currently have and possible replace with forged renaultsport megane engine and get some decent power in it that way.

You can then if you sell the car offer a buyer an original engine.

Good thought Andy. Times have moved on a bit after all. I was talking to Chris at EFI about this but discounted it due to the height of the newer engines..NOT because of all that purist bollocks. If I was making a track day car that would be the way to go but I like my parcel shelf - where would I put my Pound Stretcher shopping?? I'm pretty sure an F4R block could be made to go onto the 369/UN1 box though.

mmmm efi turbo2 ..... where have i heard that before

2002 I think it was......

anyway - yes ditch the intercooler! they actually loose power unless you're doing more than 70mph!

fuel rail really....... hate to say it but the one i used was off a tigra! can't remember which engine or model but it was a perfect fit!

ffs don't chop you're dissy down, try and find buggered one or an old gordini one! the T1 and T2 dissy's are RARE! (and you'll need something there to drive the oil pump

if you get stuck..... ask

if you want a map and are gonna run omex.... I might be able to point you to the guy that did mine before it was de-tuned

Moggy

thanks fella..useful to know about the tigra rail I was wondering if something out there would fit. It's my plan not to spoil ANY of the existing parts so it could be returned to mechanical injection if needed, so the distributor will be safe thanks for info though good comment.

Omex or Adaptronic - any differences/preference?

//edit...Tigra 1.4 bore is close to the R5 at 77 mm so assume that the cylinder spacings are similar - will start looking there for rail!!

 

[andybond]

Adaptronic simply because there is more support for it from here ( Dave ) and Scoff uses it.

 

[Brigsy]

If you wanted 16v the height wont be too much of an issue..Gav runs an f7r in his maxi and the cover will still go on ok.

 

[jamesc]

If you wanted 16v the height wont be too much of an issue..Gav runs an f7r in his maxi and the cover will still go on ok.
View attachment 8021

Great info there thanks...I'd love to go for that!! If there is a project thread can I have a link pls

 

[Brigsy]

@Brucieboy is the man to see he knows Gav well. Its an awesome build though, maxi spec with a better engine

 

[Moggy]

Oh and injectors...... Because the engine is stupid low low comp to allow for boost and the lack of good cooling (the std inter coolers and uprated ones really are crap), they designed the engine to run massive timing advance!!!

My old one was pulling somewhere in the range of 30degress! And made 360 at 1.6bar!!! And still had more to go!!!

Downside..... It needed LOADS of fuel! I think at 2.1bar Glen maxed out the 550cc injectors and also gave me clutch slip!!! Next step was 630cc injectors but a house and other hobbies meant the car was sold and became blue!

Oh and I only ran one throttle body! It was a 75mm off a Laguna!!! Lol

But get a good charge cooler in there!! It's the only way to keep them cool!!!!

 

[jamesc]

Oh and injectors...... Because the engine is stupid low low comp to allow for boost and the lack of good cooling (the std inter coolers and uprated ones really are crap), they designed the engine to run massive timing advance!!!

My old one was pulling somewhere in the range of 30degress! And made 360 at 1.6bar!!! And still had more to go!!!

Downside..... It needed LOADS of fuel! I think at 2.1bar Glen maxed out the 550cc injectors and also gave me clutch slip!!! Next step was 630cc injectors but a house and other hobbies meant the car was sold and became blue!

Oh and I only ran one throttle body! It was a 75mm off a Laguna!!! Lol

But get a good charge cooler in there!! It's the only way to keep them cool!!!!

Thanks for the information there fella, you sound like you have been there & done it!! But what engine + turbo were you running…surely not the original 1397 and T3 at 360 hp..? If so, I would be very very interested to know the spec….

It's great to get all these comments to help decide which way to go btw.

 

[andybond]

I know where you can get 630 siemens deka from ..

@Moggy dont go all quiet now. I dont even own the car and I want to know more!