5 GT Turbo Fluffy

[DaveL485]

easy and cheap.

Just how I like my cars. And women

 

[TNT Andy]

Lol, got Fluffy up and running now, just a quick question, I may have got my original pull level and oil pressure wires mixed up. I'm not getting the oil level indicating, and when she's a running, there is no oil pressure on the oe gauge and the warning light is on., but I'm showing 50psi on the stands alone gauge.

Would this do this if I'd got this, this way round?

 

[Norwich Nick]

If it was working before you touched it I'd happily say you've broken it lol!
I'd guess you've got the wires the wrong way round or a bad earth maybe? I'd like to know more about how that system works, not really looked into as I've got bigger issues ATM, let me know how you get on Andy

 

[TNT Andy]

If it was working before you touched it I'd happily say you've broken it lol!
I'd guess you've got the wires the wrong way round or a bad earth maybe? I'd like to know more about how that system works, not really looked into as I've got bigger issues ATM, let me know how you get on Andy

Problem solved.
Cut the wiring out as it serves nothing - I now have a Durite stand alone pressure gauge which shows the pressure and I never took any notice of the oil level indicator - 1 less thing to worry about.

Fluffy's back on the deck now and everything back in. Just need to flush the coolant next week at some point and get the new coolant in, drop the oil I've got in atm and get the mobile 1 stuff in ready for mapping @ Scoff's.



There is a blanket to go on the turbo, and the capillary from oil feed is temporary until I get my new one from Hel / hose solutions - they can make me one up and deliver cheeper than I can buy the individual components.

 

[DaveL485]

Personally i'd run the pressure switch mate. There is a switch and a sender. The switch is an 1/0 switch that trips at ~1bar oil pressure. Anything under that sticks the warning lights on and turns the pressure gauge into a level gauge. When oil pressure exceeds 1 bar and trips the pressure switch, it turns off the pressure lights and the oil pressure gauge uses the sender to read variable pressure.

Although you have replaced the sender/pressure gauge, you now have no oil pressure warning lights. When you're spanking it on track, what happens if you lose pressure and don't notice it right away? You simply do not drive at 10/10ths AND watch the gauges closely. It's impossible. Red lights appearing on the dash within your periforal vision will flag immediately if oil pressure drops. Really recommend reconnecting the switch at least.

 

[TNT Andy]

If it was working before you touched it I'd happily say you've broken it lol!
I'd guess you've got the wires the wrong way round or a bad earth maybe? I'd like to know more about how that system works, not really looked into as I've got bigger issues ATM, let me know how you get on Andy

Problem solved.
Cut the wiring out as it serves nothing - I now have a Durite stand alone pressure gauge whicThh shows the pressure and I never took any notice of the oil level indicator - 1 less thing to worry about.

Fluffy's back on the deck now and everything back in. Just need to flush the coolant next week at some point and get the new coolant in, drop the oil I've got in atm and get the mobile 1 stuff in ready for mapping @ Scoff's.



There is a blanket to go on the turbo, and the capillary from oil feed is temporary until I get

Personally i'd run the pressure switch mate. There is a switch and a sender. The switch is an 1/0 switch that trips at ~1bar oil pressure. Anything under that sticks the warning lights on and turns the pressure gauge into a level gauge. When oil pressure exceeds 1 bar and trips the pressure switch, it turns off the pressure lights and the oil pressure gauge uses the sender to read variable pressure.

Although you have replaced the sender/pressure gauge, you now have no oil pressure warning lights. When you're spanking it on track, what happens if you lose pressure and don't notice it right away? You simply do not drive at 10/10ths AND watch the gauges closely. It's impossible. Red lights appearing on the dash within your periforal vision will flag immediately if oil pressure drops. Really recommend reconnecting the switch at least.

 

[TNT Andy]

If it was working before you touched it I'd happily say you've broken it lol!
I'd guess you've got the wires the wrong way round or a bad earth maybe? I'd like to know more about how that system works, not really looked into as I've got bigger issues ATM, let me know how you get on Andy

Problem solved.
Cut the wiring out as it serves nothing - I now have a Durite stand alone pressure gauge whicThh shows the pressure and I never took any notice of the oil level indicator - 1 less thing to worry about.

Fluffy's back on the deck now and everything back in. Just need to flush the coolant next week at some point and get the new coolant in, drop the oil I've got in atm and get the mobile 1 stuff in ready for mapping @ Scoff's.



There is a blanket to go on the turbo, and the capillary from oil feed is temporary until I get

Personally i'd run the pressure switch mate. There is a switch and a sender. The switch is an 1/0 switch that trips at ~1bar oil pressure. Anything under that sticks the warning lights on and turns the pressure gauge into a level gauge. When oil pressure exceeds 1 bar and trips the pressure switch, it turns off the pressure lights and the oil pressure gauge uses the sender to read variable pressure.

Although you have replaced the sender/pressure gauge, you now have no oil pressure warning lights. When you're spanking it on track, what happens if you lose pressure and don't notice it right away? You simply do not drive at 10/10ths AND watch the gauges closely. It's impossible. Red lights appearing on the dash within your periforal vision will flag immediately if oil pressure drops. Really recommend reconnecting the switch at least.

 

[TNT Andy]

Thanks Dave, as always, you knowledge is greatly appreciated.

The pressure switch is not simply an on off switch, it can't be as the dash in the 5 gives a variable output no?

What was ingesting was when I was testing things last night, I first bridged out the connections on the oil level sensor to reveal nothing. I then bridged out the pressure switch also, both in running and non running conditions. Are these sensors fused somewhere illogical lol. I would rather have them connected for sure. That part of the loom needs renewing anyway, so I'll have to investigate this before my next track day.

Thanks again.

Stotty.

 

[DaveL485]

Thanks Dave, as always, you knowledge is greatly appreciated.

The pressure switch is not simply an on off switch, it can't be as the dash in the 5 gives a variable output no?

What was ingesting was when I was testing things last night, I first bridged out the connections on the oil level sensor to reveal nothing. I then bridged out the pressure switch also, both in running and non running conditions. Are these sensors fused somewhere illogical lol. I would rather have them connected for sure. That part of the loom needs renewing anyway, so I'll have to investigate this before my next track day.

Thanks again.

Stotty.

Casting my mind back now....I know for sure the 21 has 3 oil sensors. Level (in the sump), pressure switch and pressure sender (side by side on the block). When the switch signals no pressure (<1bar) the level sensor drives the dash gauge and the lights are on (Oil warning and the light around the edge of the gauge grading). When the pressure switch trips when the oil pressure is >1bar, the lights go out and the gauge reverts to the pressure sender, reading variable pressure.

I can't remember if the 5 has the independant pressure switch? Does the mushroom shaped pressure sender drive the change from oil level to oil pressure? Does the small french goblin on my shoulder whispering in my ear that the 5GT has two connections on the mushroom shaped sensor tell the truth? If so, it works the same as the 21 but the switch and sender are combined into one sensor unit.

Switch drives warning light and dash gauge function, tripping I/O at 1bar
Level sender drives gauge when oil pressure switch says NO pressure
Pressure sender drives gauge when oil pressure switch says YES pressure
With Caveat: R21 has separate switch and sender, R5 has combined switch and sender?

 

[DaveL485]

....forgot to add....it's fused through the dash. It'll be +ve to fuse, Fuse to dash and power runs through through gauge, out the other side of the gauge to the sensor input then earth through the engine. So the sensor sits on the far side of the gauge to the power feed IYSWIM.

 

[Brigsy]

Definitely keep the oil light as dave said, it may save your engine one day. Just connect the wires until it works. Earth the wires one by one until the light comes on and connect up.

Whats with the fisher price actuator get a gen garrett on there

 

[Norwich Nick]

Thanks Dave, as always, you knowledge is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for explaining it Dave, sounds simple enough. I like that little feature and hope to retain it or get it working when the time comes

Problem solved.
Cut the wiring out as it serves nothing - I now have a Durite stand alone pressure gauge whicThh shows the pressure and I never took any notice of the oil level indicator - 1 less thing to worry about.

Love the problem solving skills andy! Good idea having a gauge that shows the pressure, hopefully you can work some magic and get the light working again.

 

[TNT Andy]

Thanks Dave, as always, you knowledge is greatly appreciated.

The pressure switch is not simply an on off switch, it can't be as the dash in the 5 gives a variable output no?

What was ingesting was when I was testing things last night, I first bridged out the connections on the oil level sensor to reveal nothing. I then bridged out the pressure switch also, both in running and non running conditions. Are these sensors fused somewhere illogical lol. I would rather have them connected for sure. That part of the loom needs renewing anyway, so I'll have to

 

[TNT Andy]

Dave - that's how I had it in my head bud, I've been driving around all day wondering about this lol, and that's what I came up with also, like the mushroom is a2 way switch, one is on and off and one variable like you say.

The most intriguing thing is that both oil pressure and level were doing nothing last night, no light or anything, but noneof the fuses have blown.

I'll get me probes out and check both switches out and look for power going to the connector of death. And you're right, there is just 1 oil level sensor next to the mushroom pressure sensor.

Tricky, it'll be working again, hopefully Dave has made a bit of the dark mystery out of this.

Brigsy leave my actuator alone, it's been working fine for about 5 years. But just as an idea, what spring rate should I be looking for. Again, this is an area I cannot get my head around. I know how am actuator works, but I don't understand the relationship of the minus spring rate to the actuator opening etc.

 

[DaveL485]

If you have 2 connectors on your oil pressure mushroom, figure out which is which for a start. A multimeter with a continuity tester will do that, just remember one is a switch I/O and one is a variable sender.
You can generate pressure differences to the mushroom with engine off, engine idle and engine fast idle.

With an actuator, the springs springiness simply determines how much pressure is required to compress it. Feed pressure in the top, it inflates a "balloon" (kinda) that expands and pushes down on the spring/rod assembly.



This moves the rod outwards and seeing as the rod is attached to the wastegate it opens that to allow exhaust gasses through, diverting them away from the turbine.
As the pressure used by the actuator comes from the boost system, when the turbo reaches boost pressure x (say 8psi), there is 8psi expanding the balloon inside the actuator head. If you have an 8psi spring, this means it takes eight pounds per square inch of pressure to compress the spring, the spring will compress under the pressure and move the rod to open the wastegate. Exhaust gasses divert around the turbine and it stops accelerating the turbine and thus the compressor which stops it increasing the boost further.
If you think about it, it's a fine balancing act. The spring inside that actuator creates a fine balancing act of how much it (and thus the wastegate) opensaccording to how much boost is being produced. More than 8psi, it opens wider, diverts more gas away from the turbine and slows it down so it produces less boost, and as the boost level drops the actuator gets less pressure and the spring closes it back up, sends more gas back to the turbine and stops it slowing down. This is why you get a spike when coming on boost....that small spike/settle back is the time its taking the actuator to react to the boost, compress the spring to open the wastegate and slow the turbine down. As the turbine slows, the pressure drops, the wastegate closes up a teeny bit at the pressure drop and settles into a happy medium of open enough to maintain boost pressure.
THEN you throw in the variable of engine RPM and throttle position....as each of those values increase the engine consumption increases with it and that means the turbo has to speed up to keep the boost pressure constant. You mash the throttle open, the pressure in the system drops as demands increase. As the pressure drops the spring manages to close the wastegate a bit, sending more gas to the turbine, the turbine spins faster which compresses more air until there is enough pressure in the system to open that spring/wastegate again. It's not a case of on/off, open/closed, the actuator/wastegate system is always varying how open or closed that wastegate is to adjust the turbine speed to exactly the right balance for the engine demands.

Boost spike: The time it takes the wastegate system to react to the sudden massive increase in boost and slow the turbine back down.
Boost creep: When the wastegate aperture isn't big enough for the engine. Even when it hits actuator pressure and the spring is fully compressed and the wastegate fully open it can't divert enough gas to stop the turbine increasing in speed. As the engine speed increases, more gas is forced through the turbine as the wastegate is maxed, making the turbine spin faster and faster to increase boost pressure. The stsem cannot find a balance as the top relief limit has been reached.
Bleed Valve: Basically you're putting a leak into the line to the actuator. With no leak, 8psi in the system is 8psi at the actuator. Add a "leak" to that feed line and the system now needs to reach 10psi for the actuator to see 8psi. Turn the bleed valve up, increase the leak, now the system needs to produce 12psi to overcome that leak so the actuator sees the 8psi it needs to open. You're basically fooling the actuator as to what boost pressure is in the system.
Compressor surge: When the compressor produces more boost than the engine can consume, below actuator pressure, causing the compressor to stall until the pressure drops off, when it accelerates again until it produces more boost than the engine can consume...and around we go. Fast, slow, fast, slow...the turbo is surging. That will continue until you hit an RPM point where your engine CAN consume all of the air the compressor is compressing a boom, off you go.

Jesus Christ, I don't half rattle on don't I lol

 

[TNT Andy]

Dave - I love this, and it is great reading, but why would someone who want's to run say 21 psi, run a -31 spring?

This makes no sense.

 

[Brigsy]

I use a -34 garrett actuator on my setup. You want a minimum of -31 on yours Andy.

 

[andybond]

I use a -34 garrett actuator on my setup. You want a minimum of -31 on yours Andy.

What Briggsy said.

 

[DaveL485]

The dash number isn't the boost pressure required to compress the spring, per-se, in fact IIRC the -31 is actually part number -0031.

I may be talking shite here but I vaguely recall, if the part numbers are not arbitrary, that the last 2 numbers of the part number (-0031 or -0034) might be the pressure in inches of mercury that the actuator is fully extended.... [-31= 31Hg = 15.2psi], [-34 = 34Hg = 16.7psi]. But as I say, I may have made that up in the vast realms of shite that whirl around my brain.

 

[TNT Andy]

The dash number isn't the boost pressure required to compress the spring, per-se, in fact IIRC the -31 is actually part number -0031.

I may be talking shite here but I vaguely recall, if the part numbers are not arbitrary, that the last 2 numbers of the part number (-0031 or -0034) might be the pressure in inches of mercury that the actuator is fully extended.... [-31= 31Hg = 15.2psi], [-34 = 34Hg = 16.7psi]. But as I say, I may have made that up in the vast realms of shite that whirl around my brain.

This is gold, thanks guys, I hope this is as helpful to others as it is to me.

On with the pressure switch issue. I decided to have a look at the drawings this morning and prove a couple of things. Firstly there are no fuses in line, at all the feed comes directly from the switched ignition side of things along with a number of other feeds, one being the rear brake lights, which still work. This feed is common to the pressure switch.

Secondly, I need to stop thinking like an installation electrician and start thinking more like an auto electrician as I had got the switching arrangement the wrong way around, it looks like this may be a little simpler when I get back to it.

I'll keep this going and report my findings as I go.