Exhaust manifold and friends

[dangerstevie]

All being well i will be a 21T owner again soon thanks to andyquadra:icon_cool:
so i have been looking a a few simple mods to knock the power up to 250bhp and about the same torque without wanting split liners etc.

So i plan to do the same as i did on my old one with the cossie 4x4 intercooler, relocate air filter down into wing where std cooler sits, 16psi and a scorpion stainless (i am a sucker for those dtm pipes).
Now i have been reading about the restrcitiveness of the standard turbo elbow, manifold, wastegate housing and downpipe. And frankly want to do somthing about it, lol.
I gather it cant hurt anything as it will help spool up the turbo and let those nasty gases escape the clutches of the std setup a bit easier, further reducing exhaust valve temps and piston crown temps. (all good things).

I have seen a tubular manifold from a place in france (FBI-motors) for 380 euros including delivery. for the standard style manifold. but i have seen on there the manifold to suit external gate and that appeals to me (i wouldn't do screamer pipe tho) because i can then get rid of the std wastegate housing and run a nice free flowing elbow mated to a 3" downpipe which the same place also makes! but i need to enquire about prices for that.

Is there anything else that is recommended thats fairly cheap and reliable?
(I will be port matching the intake manifold and throttle body to the head too)

 

[Lee_R21Turbo]

1.) At 16psi no matter what mods you do you'll only manage around 210bhp anyway.

2.) Dont use cossie intercooler - a.) looks crap b.) it ends up in a crap position air flow wise unless you cut a big nasty hole in your nosecone or go with a PSG nosecone. Go for a Forge front mount or custom jobbie if you have to but at 16psi you dont really need to.

3.) Standard exh manifold to be honest is the least of your worries - especially if your only planning on running a measley 16psi. Get yourself a cosworth rear exhaust housing & 3" downpipe - that will help with the wastegate/exhaust elbow restrictions.

4.) Get yourself over to see Henk in Holland if you want a proper power hike by way of a proper remap - do all your mods beforehand though!

 

[dangerstevie]

My old 21T was setup and dyno'd at europarts motorsport at 249bhp and 248lbsft at 16psi.
If i require a remap its probably going to be worth changing over to Megasquirt, i have no worries doing that as i have done it on 3 engines so far in different cars (and a bike). My cossie cooler would be better than the standard 2 to start with until i can afford a nice front mount. I dont want to hike the power too much because its supposed to be the sensible reliable daily driver family car, i just want improve a little in as many areas as i can that will all benefit each other to make a moderate gain to about 250bhp, and about the same torque.

 

[Lee_R21Turbo]

Europarts rollers have a habit of overreading by about 30bhp - another user on here managed a rather staggering reading 280bhp on their rollers and they definately didnt have the mods to support that power! When you say 'setup' what exactly did they do?

Remap - yeah if you are comfortable doing a loom, mapping etc then yes perhaps thats a better way to go - certainly saves a trip over to Holland.

Cossie cooler will indeed be better than the 2 standard ones agreed - as long as you put it in a suitable place where its guaranteed good air flow, otherwise it would be as useful as if you stuck in in the boot & blew on it!!!

My advice - filter, cossie rear housing, 3" exhaust system & 17psi will give you a reliable solid, responsive, low lag 220-230bhp with around 250ftlb ish.

 

[dangerstevie]

Nice one dude, I dont know exactly what Europarts did to it, but i am friends with ian nixon who owned it before he shut the place down 12 months or so ago. And the car felt completly different when i got it back from him, the power run when i took it in was 232bhp and when i got it back was 249bhp. Running the same boost, so he definatly did something but i dont know what, i will take a trip round his house when i have got the car and have a word with him regarding what was done.
I can make an air deflector to mount to the bottom of the grille to the top of the rad to deflect air up into the nose cone to the cossie cooler. and a bit of water spray never hurt either.
I should know by the end of the day prices on the custom downpipe. (i am not expecting it to be too much either.)

I will also be looking for a spare standard engine so i can use it as a test bed for the megasquirt if i decide to go that way. And i will also be enquiring at a local engineering firm about getting steel liners made up, as my dad got some done for one of his classic race bikes and it only cost hin £60 per liner! for them to be custom made) so should be a lot cheaper than the £800 or so for the ones everyone can currently get.

Then i can address the weak parts of the engine over time and build up a solid 300 bhp motor eventually for when i get bored (12-18 months or so down the line)

 

[Lee_R21Turbo]

Sounds like he waved a magic wand and magically increased the limit of the standard injectors anyway as well as significantly increasing the airflow through the engine - can I have his number please he sounds like a handy fella to know!! You sure he didnt leave the pipe off the actuator & wang the fuel pressure up to around 4BAR!? Just to show you how its more or less impossible to run 250bhp on 16psi on a standard 21T engine - a standard cosworth engine only manages a smidge over 250bhp at 16psi on a T3 turbo - go figure!!!

Custom downpipe - you can mod a cosworth 3" jobbie to fit quite well with very little effort.

Megasquirt - this has already been done - ask Craig, he might be able to give you a base map if you ask nicely.

£800 for liners - whos paying that for them then eh?? Last time I paid £380 (i think) for a set including having the rings coated.

 

[-Jo-]

took me 20 minutes to deside what i was gonna reply on this one. Here it is:






good luck...!

250 bhp: standard inj-standard cam-standard turbo. Wake me up when its over ,LOL

 

[dangerstevie]

I dont understand the point to your post Jo, do you fancy expanding on good luck?

 

[Lee_R21Turbo]

Perhaps if he'd said 'impossible' then you might of understood him better.....

 

[-Jo-]

No mate, its just a reply based on the figures in the posts above. Take lee's advise, people over here doing this engine's for years and know what there talking about. I'll tell you that its impossible to get 250 bhp, running 16psi, with the standard injectors-cam-turbo.
The original turbo does 235, max 240 bhp. What can i tell...being there , done that ? Dont take it personal, i'm just the overseas idiot. :icon_wink:

 

[dangerstevie]

ahhh the edit explains it all.........i am only going from what i have experience of before, a trusted friend of mine that owned and ran a very reputible renault 5 tuning company dyno'd my old 21 on the standard engine (amal valve etc removed, cossie cooler, 16psi, scorpion stainless) and it achieved 249bhp and 248lbsft torque, now i dont know how the rollers were setup but he had been in the game for years and years and knows what he was doing, however i dont want to get into any arguements about how inaccurate the rollers were, so just for arguements sake lets say he was wrong .
Now what would you do in your opinion jo to achieve the 250bhp goal, on a £500 budget.

Management can be done with megasquirt, thats not a problem. so consider that £300 of the budget gone, so the extra £200 can go on certain things, i already have a cossie cooler sat at home from my mini project. I see it as i can get rid of the exhaust restriction for that £200 to give a nice spool to the turbo. or i can get a cam and still have the most restrictive part of the motor there choking it?

What do you reckon?

 

[dangerstevie]

Or i can wind up the boost some more but i dont want to risk nackering the liners. What would be considered the max allowable safe limit for boost on the standard liners assuming standard management, compression and turbo.

 

[Lee_R21Turbo]

I managed 256bhp (if my memory serves me right) on a standard engine, stage 2 T3, front mount intercooler, 357 injectors & 22psi, filter & stainless exhaust. Now I know for a fact it was overfuelling its nuts off off boost as it was still only running standard management & standard 2BAR MAP sensor - it quite happily ran this for months until I knocked the high boost switch on by mistake & it hit 30psi & promptly split a liner!!! LOL

 

[dangerstevie]

Haha, so basically there is no hope on standard turbo without running massive boost (when i got my old 21 it was running 28psi and had been for ages reliably too - dont ask how because i dont know, dave sibly knew jeff histead who i had the car off and jeff had wound the boost right up. so i turned it down to 16 where it would be safe.)
So with management and bigger injectors i will be on the way to a safer target of 250 ready for more work to achieve it basically.
Ill sort out aquiring the car first and then do the mods that you have recommended so far to get it a touch more lively then i will look into MS and different turbo and exhaust setup. for starters anyway....but above and beyond all its got to be reliable with reasonable fuel consumption - not single figure on a run kinda thing lol

 

[-Jo-]

however i dont want to get into any arguements about how inaccurate the rollers were, so just for arguements sake lets say he was wrong .

right.

Now what would you do in your opinion jo to achieve the 250bhp goal, on a ?500 budget.?

Management can be done with megasquirt, thats not a problem. so consider that ?300 of the budget gone, so the extra ?200 can go on certain things, i already have a cossie cooler sat at home from my mini project. I see it as i can get rid of the exhaust restriction for that ?200 to give a nice spool to the turbo. or i can get a cam and still have the most restrictive part of the motor there choking it?

What do you reckon?

Or i can wind up the boost some more but i dont want to risk nackering the liners. What would be considered the max allowable safe limit for boost on the standard liners assuming standard management, compression and turbo.

mucho's questions, lol

Are you sure you want my opinion ?

goal 250bhp - budget 500? - start from standard engine. NOT possible with standard turbo.

357's / 804 injectors
fuelpressure regulator
FMIC
turbo (cossie/T3 super60 trim/hybrid-see for sale area)
downpipe without restriction (2.5-3")
exhaust 2.5"
REMAP

 

[jonboy21t]

I'm with the rest - i'm running 17psi, forge front mount, large induction kit, cossie fuel pressure regulator, standard (rebuilt) turbo & a full stainless system. I had a shade over 200bhp on "Henks" rollers in Holland earlier this year.

In the new year i'm planning on replacing the turbo for a "hybrid" one i have, replacing the injectors with 804's & having it re-mapped - not looking for "VUK" power just a tad more than i have at present..............

Good luck!!

 

[dangerstevie]

Ok cheers for the input guys, ill see what i can do and obviously i will keep everyone informed.

 

[Lee_R21Turbo]

goal 250bhp - budget 500? - start from standard engine. NOT possible with standard turbo.

357's / 804 injectors
fuelpressure regulator
FMIC
turbo (cossie/T3 super60 trim/hybrid-see for sale area)
downpipe without restriction (2.5-3")
exhaust 2.5"
REMAP

Dont forget 3BAR MAP sensor :icon_wink:

Also I think you meant 803 injectors (cossie dark greens) not 804 injectors (porsche 944?)

 

[dangerstevie]

for the injectors i will have to look into the required fuel flow and the idle pulsewidths, because the car has to be drivable around town etc etc so the last thing i want is a ripsnorting thing on boost and a lumpy hunk of crap off boost lol. i am willing to sacrifice the peak power for drivability.

 

[-Jo-]

not for 250 bhp mate. I only use 803's from 250-300. The 804's (337cc) are good for 250, max 260.