does my camshaft phasers need replacing? mk2

[scrabble]

car is going in Friday, i will tell you work need removing and replacing after and cost.
from what scott said, its the camshaft solenoid that needs replacing.

Well lets hope it is the solenoid??!!!??? My Vee rattles after start up for about 2 seconds and then goes away. It has always done it. If it is the solenoid then that is an easy fix [smilie=yay.gif] If it is the dephaser pulleys then that is not an easy fix [smilie=icon_aaargh.gif] . Please keep us all updated with the outcome. [smilie=thanks.gif]

 

[Spike]

Ive used a few oils, shell, millers, elf but come back to the silkolene again

Less noise than previously and feesl a bit freed up as well

As for the dephasers been told they all rattle at some point and its the mechanical part which means engine and cambelt which ill wait till the next service

Heres the link to the oil 5w40 - believe member "oilman" here does some deals for uk folks (im based in hk so no luck for me) in the group offers section

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-68897-fuchs ... e-oil.aspx

I will try some Silkolene. I have used Mobil 0W-40 5W-40 10W-40...all sorts really. I will wait 4 years until next Belts Service.

Your comment gives me concern, what are you going to wait four years for? if its the oil change i would seriously think again. part of the oils task is to remove the contaminants by putting them in suspension until they are burnt of or removed by an oil drain. by waiting 4 years you seriously risk engine damage.

 

[scrabble]

Ive used a few oils, shell, millers, elf but come back to the silkolene again

Less noise than previously and feesl a bit freed up as well

As for the dephasers been told they all rattle at some point and its the mechanical part which means engine and cambelt which ill wait till the next service

Heres the link to the oil 5w40 - believe member "oilman" here does some deals for uk folks (im based in hk so no luck for me) in the group offers section

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-68897-fuchs ... e-oil.aspx

I will try some Silkolene. I have used Mobil 0W-40 5W-40 10W-40...all sorts really. I will wait 4 years until next Belts Service.

Your comment gives me concern, what are you going to wait four years for? if its the oil change i would seriously think again. part of the oils task is to remove the contaminants by putting them in suspension until they are burnt of or removed by an oil drain. by waiting 4 years you seriously risk engine damage.

I will wait four years until the next cambelt change. The oils I have tried over a year have not improved the rattling sound. If it is the dephaser pulleys then they will be changed on the next belt service in 4 years time. You can only change the dephaser pulleys once the belt is released from the camshaft pulleys. I have not got the money to get them changed again right now. If its the Dephaser Solenoid then I will change it myself. I will speak to Scott tomorrow and find out. In the meantime I will order some 5w-40 Silkolene and a new oil filter and change the oil next week.

 

[Spike]

Ive used a few oils, shell, millers, elf but come back to the silkolene again

Less noise than previously and feesl a bit freed up as well

As for the dephasers been told they all rattle at some point and its the mechanical part which means engine and cambelt which ill wait till the next service

Heres the link to the oil 5w40 - believe member "oilman" here does some deals for uk folks (im based in hk so no luck for me) in the group offers section

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-68897-fuchs ... e-oil.aspx

I will try some Silkolene. I have used Mobil 0W-40 5W-40 10W-40...all sorts really. I will wait 4 years until next Belts Service.

Your comment gives me concern, what are you going to wait four years for? if its the oil change i would seriously think again. part of the oils task is to remove the contaminants by putting them in suspension until they are burnt of or removed by an oil drain. by waiting 4 years you seriously risk engine damage.

I will wait four years until the next cambelt change. The oils I have tried over a year have not improved the rattling sound. If it is the dephaser pulleys then they will be changed on the next belt service in 4 years time. You can only change the dephaser pulleys once the belt is released from the camshaft pulleys. I have not got the money to get them changed again right now. If its the Dephaser Solenoid then I will change it myself. I will speak to Scott tomorrow and find out. In the meantime I will order some 5w-40 Silkolene and a new oil filter and change the oil next week.

Right , i see what you mean, still concerns me that the rattling is something breaking up. if its noisy thats usually the case, the bits will get into the oil. as the oil pump is before the filter the schrapnel could get in there then its goodbye engine.
only looking out for you.

 

[scrabble]

Ive used a few oils, shell, millers, elf but come back to the silkolene again

Less noise than previously and feesl a bit freed up as well

As for the dephasers been told they all rattle at some point and its the mechanical part which means engine and cambelt which ill wait till the next service

Heres the link to the oil 5w40 - believe member "oilman" here does some deals for uk folks (im based in hk so no luck for me) in the group offers section

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-68897-fuchs ... e-oil.aspx

I will try some Silkolene. I have used Mobil 0W-40 5W-40 10W-40...all sorts really. I will wait 4 years until next Belts Service.

Your comment gives me concern, what are you going to wait four years for? if its the oil change i would seriously think again. part of the oils task is to remove the contaminants by putting them in suspension until they are burnt of or removed by an oil drain. by waiting 4 years you seriously risk engine damage.

I will wait four years until the next cambelt change. The oils I have tried over a year have not improved the rattling sound. If it is the dephaser pulleys then they will be changed on the next belt service in 4 years time. You can only change the dephaser pulleys once the belt is released from the camshaft pulleys. I have not got the money to get them changed again right now. If its the Dephaser Solenoid then I will change it myself. I will speak to Scott tomorrow and find out. In the meantime I will order some 5w-40 Silkolene and a new oil filter and change the oil next week.

Right , i see what you mean, still concerns me that the rattling is something breaking up. if its noisy thats usually the case, the bits will get into the oil. as the oil pump is before the filter the schrapnel could get in there then its goodbye engine.
only looking out for you.

I know what you mean. Maybe the dephaser pulleys are external to the internals of the engine? ie: run on bearings? I spoke to a guy a year ago who had an illiad and his dephasers rattled for 3 years and did not get worse or better? I am still not convinced that the dephaser solenoid will cure the problem. It still sounds like a mechanical problem?

 

[Spike]

Just to break the loop on this,
my opinion on the "dephasers" (to me its the cam advancers). these are units that are mounted on the end of the cam and rotate with the cam. they are filled with oil from the main gallery, this is controlled by the solenoids. the oil DOES return to the sump after being used by the advancer when the solenoid opens and closes (controlled by ecu), the cam usually uses a piston controlled helix to do this.
if the unit suffers catastrophic failure, it would be likend to playing pass the parcel with a live grenade!
honestly, i have over 30 years experience in engines and engine technology and i do not say this lightly, i would not use my engine with an advancer that has collapsed internally or noisy. the potential for engine damage is high. the potential bill is huge.
the damage could be caused by a cam drive failure, advancer failure by contaminating the oil or a belt failure after cam siezure.
i think none of the experiencd amongst us would dissagree, after all you openly admit you dont exactly know what the problem is!
remember: you can lead a horse to water.
i am only trying to help, yes i am a pessimist, heres hoping you stay lucky.

james, how much are valves these days.

 

[Spike]

just a thought and yes i know you have just had it serviced, have you checked the oil level?
does seem obvious, but..........

 

[Jamesv6]

I would defo check the oil levels if its just been serviced its easy to forget to put the right amount in.. [smilie=icon_exclaim.gif]

Or in my case it's easy to forget you've put the right amount in, and put the right amount in again. [smilie=icon_exclaim.gif]

 

[Spike]

i know a very good mechanic that remembered there was no oil just as he was driving up the road on a road test. he got away with it and the customer never found out.

 

[scrabble]

Is everything on the Vee fragile and weak?!??! From what I can tell so far...all the complaints on these De-phasers seem to come from Phase 2 owners???

 

[k1ano]

I seem to recall being advised that de-phasers should ideally be replaced with the cambelt change on the Vee but that it is not necessary and there is no issue with them being a bit noisy on startup as this stops after a minute or two ... I would imagine de-phasers which are permanently noisy would be more conerning than those which make a noise for a short while until perhaps pressure/temps are reached ,..

I would also concur that an oil change may help - I always used Silkolene 10/50 on my Vee and warmed it up before giving it any beans - which was fairly rare in any case ... my de-phasers weren't noisy though i.e. this was not the reason for me changing oil grade, the reason for that is that I really rate Silkolene oil ...

Martin

 

[Adrian]

Is everything on the Vee fragile and weak?!??! From what I can tell so far...all the complaints on these De-phasers seem to come from Phase 2 owners???

MK1 same problem :evil:

 

[scrabble]

Is everything on the Vee fragile and weak?!??! From what I can tell so far...all the complaints on these De-phasers seem to come from Phase 2 owners???

MK1 same problem :evil:

OKay that answers that then!

 

[masterL]

UPDATE:

car went in yesturday, and problem sorted!

It is the camshaft solenoids they are £221, for the two. its about 50min job to fit.

 

[scrabble]

UPDATE:

car went in yesturday, and problem sorted!

It is the camshaft solenoids they are £221, for the two. its about 50min job to fit.

Great news. But still confused how a aolenoid can rectify a Mechanical sounding fault? Well, if its fixed the problem then all good!

 

[Spike]

UPDATE:

car went in yesturday, and problem sorted!

It is the camshaft solenoids they are £221, for the two. its about 50min job to fit.

Great news. But still confused how a aolenoid can rectify a Mechanical sounding fault? Well, if its fixed the problem then all good!

I have to agree, how does a solenoid change cure the noise but if its fixed its great news.

 

[redguard]

This is from Renault:
"HOW IT WORKS
Two types of camshaft angle variators exist. The first one is based on a piston combined with helical teeth. This is located on the inner face of the distribution belt pulley. In these teeth are placed gears that are interdependent with the camshaft. The piston allows axial movement of the gear in relation to the helical teeth of the pulley, rather like driving down a corkscrew. When the piston moves the gear in relation to the helical teeth, it swivels slightly. Thus, depending on its position, a more or less great angular shift appears between the camshaft and the pulley and consequently between the crankshaft and camshaft.
However, this complex device is increasingly giving way to the “paddle” variator. This is still located in the camshaft pulley. A rotor separates the chambers, which are cavities arranged in the body of the pulley. By injecting oil under pressure on one or other of the faces of the separator that the rotor forms, the rotor tends to pivot in either one direction or the other. There are “advance” and “retard” chambers, depending on the direction of the shift induced on the camshaft. It is by applying oil under pressure using a solenoid valve to one or other of these chambers that the computer can control the camshaft shift. Depending on the application, this operation can be carried out either in all or nothing mode or uninterrupted. In the first case, two extreme values of shift are available. If the system works in continuous mode, the shift can then take an unspecified value between these two extreme positions to optimise the operation of the engine still further."

As I understand it the Clio has the second type of variator (paddle) in all or nothing mode. I would assume that if the solenoid was faulty and it was either totally inoperative or not maintaining sufficient oil pressure the variator would not be properly controlled and would flap about making a clacking sound. I'm not sure where the inlet cam has a position sensor as if it did, I would also assume that the engine management computer would know something was wrong as the value expected from the position sensor would not be what was expected and would throw up a fault light.

Just my thoughts based on very little exposure to the engine (as yet!).

 

[scrabble]

This is from Renault:
"HOW IT WORKS
Two types of camshaft angle variators exist. The first one is based on a piston combined with helical teeth. This is located on the inner face of the distribution belt pulley. In these teeth are placed gears that are interdependent with the camshaft. The piston allows axial movement of the gear in relation to the helical teeth of the pulley, rather like driving down a corkscrew. When the piston moves the gear in relation to the helical teeth, it swivels slightly. Thus, depending on its position, a more or less great angular shift appears between the camshaft and the pulley and consequently between the crankshaft and camshaft.
However, this complex device is increasingly giving way to the “paddle” variator. This is still located in the camshaft pulley. A rotor separates the chambers, which are cavities arranged in the body of the pulley. By injecting oil under pressure on one or other of the faces of the separator that the rotor forms, the rotor tends to pivot in either one direction or the other. There are “advance” and “retard” chambers, depending on the direction of the shift induced on the camshaft. It is by applying oil under pressure using a solenoid valve to one or other of these chambers that the computer can control the camshaft shift. Depending on the application, this operation can be carried out either in all or nothing mode or uninterrupted. In the first case, two extreme values of shift are available. If the system works in continuous mode, the shift can then take an unspecified value between these two extreme positions to optimise the operation of the engine still further."

As I understand it the Clio has the second type of variator (paddle) in all or nothing mode. I would assume that if the solenoid was faulty and it was either totally inoperative or not maintaining sufficient oil pressure the variator would not be properly controlled and would flap about making a clacking sound. I'm not sure where the inlet cam has a position sensor as if it did, I would also assume that the engine management computer would know something was wrong as the value expected from the position sensor would not be what was expected and would throw up a fault light.

Just my thoughts based on very little exposure to the engine (as yet!).

So in layman's terms...the solenoid controls the oil going to the de-phasers? I know that the fault code comes up on the osb reader when plugged in. I don't think anything shows up on the dash though. F**k it, I am going to buy the solenoids anyway and put them in.

 

[WONGY]

Does sound interesting though my car hasnt shown any faults on the computer at the dealer

Plus when i spoke to a specialist in the UK he said there is no oil fed to the dephasers and different oil helped but sounds like thats not correct?

Obvious question if the solenoid is faulty how would you notice e.g. misfiring at higher revs other than the clacking sound?

 

[redguard]

Hi Scrabble, Wongy,

yes the solenoid's job is to control oil to the dephaser/variator. The computer sends a signal to the solenoids under certain conditions. This from the workshop manual:

The camshaft phase shifters are located on the inlet camshaft. Their function is to modify the timing adjustment.
They are controlled (all-or-nothing) by the injection computer via two solenoid valves located on the cylinder head cover.
The solenoids allow oil to flow through to control the phase shifters as a function of engine operation:
– if the coolant temperature is above -10°C,
– during the catalytic converter warming phase, i.e. just
after engine starting with a coolant temperature in the
range between -10 ̊C and 32 ̊C,
– if the engine speed is in the range between 920 and
5500 rpm, with an engine oil temperature in the
range between -10 ̊C and 110 ̊C,
– if the engine speed is in the range between 1200 and
5500 rpm with an engine oil temperature above
120 ̊C ,
– if there is no injection fault

Wongy, the above clearly states oil is controlled by the solenoids. So your UK specialist gave you a bum steer. Renault check them with the Clip diagnostic system but they do also have a tool which effectively sends 12 volts to the solenoid with the engine running. I think noise is the first indicator that somethings not right. However I think it's extremely difficult to rule out other potential causes (eg tappets) without experience or diagnostics. If the engine sounds sweet and pulls well I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.