Cant polish a turd???....yeah what ever!

[Brett]

Yeah the quattro setup is great off the line and in all conditions! However saying that, one of the clio's strong points has always been its off line traction. With 230hp or so, it not so much as squeeks the tyres in the dry. What it will be like with around 400 however I don't know. The main objective now though is to have a much better handling car that will take counless ammount of abuse reliably. Not so much 0-60 and top speed stats.
If I remember correctly, mikeT was seeing 60 in about 4.5 seconds with about 350hp and a lot of wheelspin.

 

[Brett]

Well after a quiet, boring week at work, all I've done is think about how to improve this wee setup. Well let's say its all just got a whole lot more intersting!!!

As said previously, I'm not really going out hunting for power figures or performance stats. I just want it to handle more predictably even with alot of boost chucked in the mix. I'm currently very confident that the chassis is going to be MUCH better so I'm no longer going to worry about it until its all in and running. That leaves the "boost" issue.

I'm told and believe that the S4 motor is good for 450-500hp on its stock internals. These figures are impossible however with OEM turbo's. The 2 K03's are ok for around 350hp and a very flat torque curve. Yes that will be great but they won't last long. This is why its my intention to convert it to a single turbo.....albeit a feckin' HUGE one. On the bench lays a Holset HX40 which is good for well over 500hp and up toward the 700 mark. (I won't be going near that yet) The problem with using this however, is that it will be on or off and not in the slightest bit progressive. Good fun in a straight line yes but that makes this whole process pointless. After alot of researching on how to help this problem on an S4 motor, I stumpled across another type of S4 that gets over the problem. The Lancia S4! It uses compound charging. Ie high boost supercharger helping a big turbo get to boost.
After looking online, good Eaton chargers from mercs and jags are soooo cheap and good for 300hp and around 10psi of boost! For what I'll sell my good K03's for its a win win situation and will give me a MUCH flatter torque curve which I really want halfway through corners.
Roll on the grp B sound track! Lol

 

[taipan]

Sounds good Brett. Won't there be even more of a heat headache with compound charging though? Woudln't twin turbos create less/the same heat as a compound set-up but be much more straightforward? Or is it a space issue? A set of hybrid KO4s for instance are good for 600+, which is probably more than the chassis can take. With a swap for the KO3s I can't imagine KO4 hybrids would be that costly. Appreciate you've already got the Hoslett lying around mind.

Your thoughts bring to mind the Lotis Elise (Exige?) owned by "Ronin" in the States. He's running a compound charger. There's a full build somewhere (he built it himself) and it's a very impressive and QUICK machine.

As you say, S4 internals are bulletproof to 450-500. With the different head they also have more torque than the contemporary RS4, albeit at the expense of a less peaky delivery.

 

[Kett]

Sounds like a mouth-watering prospect.
I think 'robustness' and 'progressive power' are the keywords... Not sure that mammoth turbo fits the bill - but I admire your audacity!

 

[Brett]

Your bang on Jon. Its looOOads easier to fit twin K04's which does eventually get you up to those heady figures. Thing is, every man and his dog goes that way and even those have reliable limits. The Holset will be "fit and forget" and take everything I manage to throw at it. It will work fine on its own I'm sure. Just means the peak boost starts coming in at about 4500rpm which is fine considering the gearbox will keep the revs between the 5000-7500 range on track. Add an Eaton supercharger in to it and the boost will come in much earlier. The bonus being instant throttle response and higher boost through out the rev range. It'll be best to look at it as a supercharged engine with a turbo added for topend boost. Admittedly Eatons make a fair amount of heat but its outlet will be charge cooled along with the turbo.
My mate says a lot of big power v8's are going this route now as its very simple and effective when done as an inline setup. Ie the airflows through the airfilter, into the turbo, cooled in a chargecooler, through the throttle body, into the supercharger, into another smaller chargecooler and then down the inlet manifold.

 

[taipan]

Yeah agree that sometimes the well trodden path isn't always the best path! Having said that it does sound overly complicated. Definintely not pissing on your bonfire though - think it's going to be great either way!

Won't shoehorning a charger and all the realting cooling gubbins make things a bit tight back there? When I was looking at FI (relatively) seriously I always intended to make use of the front boot space for coolers/radiators etc. Researching, I stumbled across a Lexus ISF in the US that placed his turbos in the exhaust system right near the rear silencers (I didn't even know that you could do this) and so I started to think out putting the FI up front and somehow routing it through to the engine in the back. It was around this point that my gearbox bust and the rest is history!

Benefits of putting things up front would be cooling/airflow would be much easier as well as improved weight distribution, although I had not got as far as working out how to connect the two ends together!! Proper back of the fag packet "engineering"! lol.

Spose I still harbour FI intentions, so for me I'd start simple and get the thing up and running with a standard twin turbo set-up and then afterwards work out how to fit the compound charger set-up. Even with the standard S4 lump in there it's going to be a one-of-a-kind beast - in fact I can't think of a single Vee that's got a non-Renault engine in it.

 

[Brett]

Sounds complicated and I thought the same but after researching into the different types of set ups it is actually suprisingly straight forward as an inline setup. All the cooling takes place in the front using a second rad as per usuall. That inturn will feed the chargecoolers in the rear. It will definatly be tighter in there but the plan is to put the turbo's large cooler in the boot. That will unclutter the rear nicely and leave the rest of the space to the blower and its own charge cooler.

 

[taipan]

Fair dos. Sounds like you've got a plan. :approve: I suppose in many ways the vee has an advantage as, whilst side to side it's bit tight, there is plenty of headroom to expand into and no bonnet clearance issues to worry about!

 

[Brett]

Yeah rooms an issue if I intend to use covers. Can't see the point using them though as 1; they will enclose the heat more and 2; I want to show off the German invasion! Lol
The engine bay as a whole is a good size to work with. Especially now the engine has gone north to south instead of east to west and all the cooling is up front.
Now that I've got the baulk of things, ie, motor, gearbox, clutch, flywheel, turbo ec etc I'm just looking forward to april when everything will start to slot together. Everything at this stage is planning and drawing up what's to be done. Else I can see this dragging.
Speaking of drawings, I downloaded a load of blue prints to the lancia delta S4. Brilliant but hugely complicated that uses bypass valves and other actuators. The way I'm going to do it is a lot different and more reliable. Will also enable the engine to be mapped the same as any other turbocharged car. Turns out the Lancia can have a dwell period where power delivery isn't smooth. Basically because the ecu has to realise hotter, less pressurised air from the supercharger is being switch to cooler higher pressurised air from the turbo. The inline setup I'm going for doesnt have that as both the supercharger and turbo work together as opposed to being switch from one to another.

 

[looch]

Brett I absolutely love you for doing this! :bow:


What about suspension and brakes?

 

[Brett]

I'm unsure about the suspension at the moment. I'm pretty sure I'll need different spring rates as the weight from front to back will be a lot different. Hopefully nearer 50\50.
Brake wise I'm fitting Brembo VW Touereg/Porsche Cayenne Z17 calipers alround. They are 6 pot fronts, 4 pot rears and designed to work on a 330mm disk. Main advantage being it'll have much bigger pads and a tad more stopping force.

 

[looch]

:approve:

 

[Brett]

Gearbox arrived from Halifax today and I could not be happier. Its the first time I've offered it up to the car. Turns out it fits PERFECTLY! The driveshafts line up perfectly and it sits a nice distance behind the bumper as opposed to protruding like I first thought it would. Also the main casing is only 195mm wide which now means I have the option of making the car look 100% OEM in everyway.
This has flung a spanner in the works now. I didn't think the oem+ theme was possible but now it is.

Do I leave the motor relatively standard at around 350hp and and go the OEM look or do I go balls out? I DON'T KNOW!!!

 

[taipan]

Balls out. No question. OEM+ is an overrated concept anyhow

 

[Duncan]

I love the idea of this looking 100% standard. Would shock a few!

Having said that, it will have all the minerals to back the full on lairy race car style look.

 

[Brett]

This is my problem Duncan. I love the look of the standard ph1 and if I keep the twin turbos it very possible that nobody would ever tell what lurking under the covers.
On the other hand I'd also love to go the full track look which inturn would help getting it working as I want it.

 

[looch]

Look mate, in all honesty your car is the polar opposite of OEM or OEM+ ffs Brett, turn this into the animal it longs to be....be the behemoth...the VEEhemoth

Unlease the beast


or ill punch you

 

[taipan]

:rofl: :approve:

 

[Brett]

Hhmmmm. Maybe I should do a poll as I'm 100% happy either way.

 

[Brett]

.....Oh and as for you looch, I'd give you a right hook back but I guess you'd know that and give me an upper cut before hand! Lol