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Winter re-spec

Lankan":15vpwqed said:
Looking good Jon. If you engine was completely healthy then even 245 would have been optimistic so to get 259 after is a fantastic result I think.

How does the torque look like?

Very true, Dulan. I think the 'before' graph was something ridiculous like 178bhp or something [smilie=icon_eek.gif] [smilie=icon_eek.gif]

I take it you mean the torque curve? I don't know yet as I haven't seen the graphs, will let you know when I get them. :approve:
 
taipan":z3uv5xpb said:
Lankan":z3uv5xpb said:
Looking good Jon. If your engine was completely healthy then even 245 would have been optimistic so to get 259 after is a fantastic result I think.

How does the torque look like?

Very true, Dulan. I think the 'before' graph was something ridiculous like 178bhp or something [smilie=icon_eek.gif] [smilie=icon_eek.gif]

I take it you mean the torque curve? I don't know yet as I haven't seen the graphs, will let you know when I get them. :approve:
Oops, yes meant torque curve (finger trouble on a Friday). :s

Before figure of 178 [smilie=icon_cry.gif] Some serious mess up there then!

To me the torque curve was the more important attribute of the whole exercise. So would be interested to see how it is across the rev range.
 
taipan":36xuds1f said:
I think (and I may be remembering incorrectly) that that's what has stopped Fred from completing his conversion. The cable has to go such a long way unless you route it through the cabin!!!!

Really? There have been plenty of perfectly fine mid engine sports cars before the age of fly-by-wire. The pedal is cable operated any on the ph1. A good quality cable and tps its done. Is fly-by-wire really needed?
 
In all honesty I don't know. What I do know is that there aren't many ITB cars running around out there and Fred (for instance) has been trying to get his to work for a while - admitedly off and on. No idea what the hold up is, but, like most things when modifying, I'm sure there are a few hidden problems that you can't envisage until you actually whack the ITBs on there and try and make them work.

Not really had a chance to have a proper sit down and think about how I'd make it actually work. Can't be too many insurmountable problems. First things first, which kit to buy?!
 
taipan":2ttsyhx8 said:
In all honesty I don't know. What I do know is that there aren't many ITB cars running around out there and Fred (for instance) has been trying to get his to work for a while - admitedly off and on. No idea what the hold up is, but, like most things when modifying, I'm sure there are a few hidden problems that you can't envisage until you actually whack the ITBs on there and try and make them work.

Not really had a chance to have a proper sit down and think about how I'd make it actually work. Can't be too many insurmountable problems. First things first, which kit to buy?!

Anything new always introduces issues you cant predict. Look at the F1 teams the Renault powered ones are struggling although thats on a totally different scale. Soon as you have your vee back we can go for a 'drive' together and see whats what in the real world. As long as yours runs above the book figure then I would be happy. Mine ran 240 and that was with just the induction kit nothing else. So you are 20 odd brake up on a 'stock' car which is a good result. We can vmax test that on the autobahn ;) As for torque we can test that when we meet up. Need to see your graph and see how it translates in reality. Main thing its ready to rock and roll for the summer. And be nice to see it Iceberg again :)
 
It will be interesting like you say Nas. I think the extra weight of the ph2 may show its drawbacks in a head to head. Great to hear its working as it should though!
 
Oldskoolbaby":3p1vjhi2 said:
It will be interesting like you say Nas. I think the extra weight of the ph2 may show its drawbacks in a head to head. Great to hear its working as it should though!

But Jon is much fatter than me so I will claw some kilos back ;)
 
Im not getting involved in your lovers tiffs Nas! Lol Truth be told, you can probably beat him going backwards but thats only because you've had good practice going backwards in a vee!! Lmao
Just thinking about it, the lack of meat on your brakes probably sways your car lighter than Jons.......
 
Oldskoolbaby":2kl2tftt said:
Im not getting involved in your lovers tiffs Nas! Lol Truth be told, you can probably beat him going backwards but thats only because you've had good practice going backwards in a vee!! Lmao

Takes skill,time and effort mate ;) How do you think ragnotti discovered he could 360s!! He just had to go one better than me!! As for brakes still struggle to understand the concept of them. All they do is slow you down and not a lot else.
 
All this talk about TORQUE, can we see the graphs, anyone?
And please, no pixelated scans, nice big juicy pictues/graphs!
 
V6 2HOT":20sc5zni said:
But Jon is much fatter than me so I will claw some kilos back ;)

Not to mention more handsome.

Oldskoolbaby":20sc5zni said:
Im not getting involved in your lovers tiffs Nas!

:rofl:

SPIKE":20sc5zni said:
All this talk about TORQUE, can we see the graphs, anyone? And please, no pixelated scans, nice big juicy pictues/graphs!

Patience my good man. Not even picked the car up yet.
 
From what little I know about graphs I think it looks pretty good :)

Not sure what the standad car's graph looks like, but going to have to be careful lower down the rev range with the gearbox as the torque seems to be pretty much instant and continuous.

jon-c-clio-V6_zpsaac40659.jpg
 
taipan":18zmlzn6 said:
From what little I know about graphs I think it looks pretty good :)

Not sure what the standad car's graph looks like, but going to have to be careful lower down the rev range with the gearbox as the torque seems to be pretty much instant and continuous.

jon-c-clio-V6_zpsaac40659.jpg

Pretty normal as its NA engine so torque is virtually constant the whole way thru the rev range and remember graph starts at 2500rpm. Mine was absolutely straight when tested it Surrey Rolling Road hence why whichever gear you pull in the vee whilst accelerating you get the same thrust each time. Nothing to worry about mate.
 
Ah yes, good spot. Hadn't seen that it started at 2500rpm!!! :rollseyes: :)

Have you got your graph anywhere Nas? Be interesting to be able to compare.
 
taipan":3gk7t5fm said:
Ah yes, good spot. Hadn't seen that it started at 2500rpm!!! :rollseyes: :)

Have you got your graph anywhere Nas? Be interesting to be able to compare.

Somewhere on paper. Will have to take a pic and download it. But not sure where it is!
 
Bring it along next time I see you. Will be an interesting comparison.

Remind me to show you the 'before' graph by the way. Quite the giggle! :)
 
taipan":30gz08rx said:
Bring it along next time I see you. Will be an interesting comparison.

Remind me to show you the 'before' graph by the way. Quite the giggle! :)

Will do. The before graph sounds like its gonna be a shocker!! Am I holding it upside down variety!! Glad its sorted and the neighbours will now see this mythical car you have banging on about all this time!!
 
That's a nice increase in torque you have there Jon, at least from 2500 rpm. As its lighter than standard your Vee must surely be pretty quick when compared to a standard one.
 
V6 2HOT":3ujb6ivh said:
Will do. The before graph sounds like its gonna be a shocker!! Am I holding it upside down variety!!

It's not clever. I'll leave it at that!! ;)

V6 2HOT":3ujb6ivh said:
the neighbours will now see this mythical car you have banging on about all this time!!

Jim's away in bloody Beirut for the next 4 weeks. Just before he gets back.....the car's booked in at Scott's for a full brake overhaul......mythical beast indeed. :rofl:

Lankan":3ujb6ivh said:
That's a nice increase in torque you have there Jon, at least from 2500 rpm. As its lighter than standard your Vee must surely be pretty quick when compared to a standard one.

Nas and I are going to find out what's what at some point I'm sure. :race:

To be honest, whilst I'm not going to turn my nose up at a little more poke, as you allude to, I switched some time ago from "more bhp" thinking to "less weight" thinking. To my eyes, there is a lot of easy weight to be taken from the Vee. My target is sub 1250kg, which I think is doable. Assuming a standard Ph1 is 1355kg, then I'm already at 1315kg with just the seat swap!! [smilie=icon_eek.gif]

For reference a R26.r weighs in at 1220kg.....
 
After a weather delayed but uneventful train trip I managed to get up t’north to collect the car from Chris yesterday. He had a bit of a slow morning, so I ended up spending nearly an hour or so over a coffee bringing him up to speed on all things Vee. We also had quite a detailed conversation about gearboxes, as he’s developed an Renault adaptor kit for one of the Audi 6 speed box that’s proving rather popular with the 172/182 guys. Obviously useless for my purposes, but a useful contact to have none-the-less as I’m sure I’ve not heard the last of gearbox troubles...

Anyhow, he walked me round the car and showed me what he’s changed and the effect it’s had. To be honest, as you can see from the photo, it all looks rather neat and other than a few screws you wouldn’t know anything’s changed. Turned out to be a good job I left the tool kit bracket in there after all!

Out with the old:
photo3_zps1c351bed.jpg


In with the new:
photo1_zpsd3163359.jpg


The ECU is a simple plug and play now, so once the tuning software is downloaded from t’interweb it’s just a matter of bunging the USB cable in to the laptop and then voila I can adjust pretty much whatever parameter I want. To be honest I’m only going to do more harm than good if I start changing things, but I can always run data logs and email them to Chris for his critique and tweaks if required.

photo2_zps12632e18.jpg


Having picked up a lot of tuning mumbo jumbo from the MPS crowd, I was aware that everything and anything can be tweaked using the software, but what I didn’t realise was I can now do random stuff as well, like adjust what temperature I choose the fans to come on or play with the VVT. It really is a complete shift from “impossible to crack” to “change anything the hell you want”!

So brief lesson over and Chris’s next customer chomping at the bit it was time for the off. Chris did warn me that I needed to be careful as a) it’s now an extremely responsive beast and b) it was absolutely pissing it down. Warning heeded I took it easy and realised very quickly that petrol was the first concern!

After filling up it was onto the motorway tip toeing away with the lorries in the loser lane. The weather was that bad I wasn’t able to really prod the pedal home until I was on the A1 – so about 100 miles of tip-toeing!! It took so long that I was actually quite nervous by the time everything clicked into place: road dry, tyres dry, road clear, road straight.

So here we were then, 6th to 5th - still too high - so down to 4th. Car settled, revs about 4k, pedal then mashed. Immediately the engine note hardened and then rose. And then rose some more. The power kept building with the revs and (I’ve no idea why) the dyno graph flashed through my thoughts as I realised that the power keeps building up to peak at around 6.7k. Things felt like they were going to burst. The induction was whip cracking away, the gearbox (I think) was whining, the engine sounded just insane and, well, I couldn’t even hear the exhaust. I actually involuntarily laughed. I couldn’t help myself. It was complete overload of the senses. Considering I’d driven this car for the best part of 2 hours and it was such a quiet, easy gentle cruiser; now it felt like the throttle pedal was connected to a landmine! Getting my kicks in a turbo cars for the last few years I’d got used to the all in one kidney punch that FI torque meters out. This was something different though, there was no real punch but the speedo flashed around the dial just as quickly. I suppose that’s the flat torque curve for you.

Fun over, throttle down and let the engine braking take over. NOW the exhaust could be heard crackling and popping away on the overrun. The barking cherry on the top then! Chris mentioned that on a couple of the dyno runs when he was fine tuning it was doing it flame spitting party trick, so he’s actually had to dial it back to where it currently is now!! lol Was grinning like an idiot when I finally got in. Absolutely bloody mental car.

Not sure about everyone else, but round our way today was easily the nicest day of the year so far. Warm, not a cloud in the sky and just perfect driving weather, so took it out for a couple of hours on a few of my favourite roads.

With more seat time I’m starting to pick up on a few of the intricacies of Chris’s work. The throttle is super sensitive. You press and the revs rise. There is no dead spot at all. Twinned with the TTV it’s a match made in heaven; the engine just responds to the throttle pedal with revs galore. It feels like my foot is pushing the rev needle. It’s actually quite difficult to complete the perfect up and down change, because I’m having to do things so much faster as the mechanicals now allow it and can respond to it. Taking a bit of time to dial in, but we’re getting there and it’s so satisfying learning and then, every now and then. getting it absolutely spot on.

Some other things I picked up on:
- The PH2 box feels nice to use. The short throw is a big improvement over the ph1!
- The BCs are confidence inspiring. The car is stiff and over any sort of imperfections it’s noticeably harder than OEM, but it’s so composed and compliant and not crashy like I’d feared. They do need to be set up professionally though. It’s on the short term to-do list.
- The idle issue is no more. It’s been completely erased. In the entire journey yesterday and 2 hour hoon today the car didn’t stall once and returned to idle perfectly. Case closed.
- The rear side passenger brake calliper is sticking on intermittently. The effect of this is a bloody huge great wiggle!! Thought it was a rear wheel bearing at first (though I’m getting Scott to definitely rule this out) but it’s intermittent and so I’m pretty sure it’s not them.
- The dash looks like a Christmas tree what with all the things “broken” or “missing”! The dash will be coming out for upholstering anyway so I’ll solder what needs to be soldered then.
- The car is absolutely filthy! It hasn’t had a proper clean in best part of 2 years!! Once the wrap is off I’ll be giving it a proper inside/outside/engine bay/the works detail.

Anyhow, there’s always something to be done, which is why I love this car so much. The fun of it isn’t the destination but the journey there. The car is now everything I hoped it would be from the outset. Yes, there are things still to do, but for now I’m going to keep things simple and my plans small. It’s been a long time coming but the mechanicals are up and running and (very loudly) on song! Now to just drive and enjoy the thing!!

photo4_zps4020079f.jpg


photo5_zps8b2093b8.jpg
 
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