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Winter re-spec
- Thread starter taipan
- Start date
Lankan":19j897q6 said:
A very good and valid question!! Something Chris pondered as well. I think the long and short of it was it's less complex (read less expensive) to splice the ph1 loom for the requirements of the ph2 engine than bin the ph1 ECU/loom and run the ph2 ECU and loom.
Retrospectively it would have been money thrown away anyhow. Had I opted for the Ph2 ECU and loom install I would have effectively been paying for that to run the dash, a/c and other non-engine functions as the new ECU is going to be running the engine. In other words, I've come to the right conclusion albeit using the wrong method!!! lol
Okay, understand Jon. I wasn't aware of this when we touched base re the RTI issue you were having, so curious as to whether this may have anything to do with having the "Ph1 ECU with a hybrid loom"? In any case if this can be fixed during the remap then it will no longer be an issue.taipan":10e7kui7 said:
I think each and every engine negative is to do with the modfications carried out vs the pretty stringent parameteres of the OEM set-up. The ECU is trying its best to protect the engine as it's constantly seeing readings way outside the norm based on the OEM calcs it's running! Poor thing. lol
Once the second ECU is in place and has relieved the standard ECU of all but it's non-engine functions everything should settle down as the second ECU can be made to do anything Chris wants. Only engine-related thing that ideally the original ECU will control is the throttle (so the RTI will be down to it), but even control of that can be wrestled away by the fitting of an additional throttle control unit.
Just wanted to double-check your TTV experiences so we could rule out anything untoward to do with the TTV itself. Finding that when you create Frankenstein it doesn't go too well if you leave in his oroginal brain. lol
Once the second ECU is in place and has relieved the standard ECU of all but it's non-engine functions everything should settle down as the second ECU can be made to do anything Chris wants. Only engine-related thing that ideally the original ECU will control is the throttle (so the RTI will be down to it), but even control of that can be wrestled away by the fitting of an additional throttle control unit.
Just wanted to double-check your TTV experiences so we could rule out anything untoward to do with the TTV itself. Finding that when you create Frankenstein it doesn't go too well if you leave in his oroginal brain. lol
Seems more like an injection issue to me. When you lift off at hight RPM (equals high speed?) The injection is shut off after a little delay. The ECU is programmed for a lot of reciprocating mass therefore the injection probably "reengages" only slightly above 1000 RPM which is enough to "catch" the engine. With the TTV flywheel however I expect the engine to decelerate a lot faster which probably doesn't give the ECU time enough to prevent it from stalling. Increasing the reengagement RPM by a few hundred should solve it in my opinion unless it's caused by the overall tune which might not be the best. I don't think it's the throttle because normally the valve should go to a save idle position which shouldn't make it stall. however I can be totally wrong.taipan":33vzxgms said:
^^^^ Intersting stuff Jonas, cheers :approve:
I agree that it's got something to do with when the engine 'catches' itself to prevent a stall after you've disengaged the clutch from high up the rev range. Classic example would be approaching a motorway exit junction and coming to a complete stop. Speed and revs will go from fairly high to idle in a relatively short space of time. That's when the problem presents itself.
If you downshift with throttle blips you can drive round the problem, although the throttle isn't the most sensitive and the flywheel means the engine revs far more freely, so it becomes a balancing act between pressing the pedal enough to get the blip on the one hand but not revving back up to the top of the rev range on the other!
Whatver the cause of the issue is it seems to be a fairly straightfoward solution to something that Chris has dealt with quite a few times before. So pretty positive then.
I agree that it's got something to do with when the engine 'catches' itself to prevent a stall after you've disengaged the clutch from high up the rev range. Classic example would be approaching a motorway exit junction and coming to a complete stop. Speed and revs will go from fairly high to idle in a relatively short space of time. That's when the problem presents itself.
If you downshift with throttle blips you can drive round the problem, although the throttle isn't the most sensitive and the flywheel means the engine revs far more freely, so it becomes a balancing act between pressing the pedal enough to get the blip on the one hand but not revving back up to the top of the rev range on the other!
Whatver the cause of the issue is it seems to be a fairly straightfoward solution to something that Chris has dealt with quite a few times before. So pretty positive then.
Good catch-up with Chris over the weekend. The standalone is all in and working as expected. Engine-wise the standard ECU had been relieved of everything but the idle control with no ill effects, which was a very good start.
The anticiapted idle control issues have reared their head though. First off the good news - the throttle and idle speed regulation undertaken by the standard ECU continues to work fine, even though the new ECU is controlling the import factors. However, it turns out that the standard ECU cannot cope with the change in weight of the flywheel and the change in the plenum volume. Due to this we have occasional overshoot (stall) and a 'hunting' idle. In a way I'm glad the cause of the symptons are as Chris theorised. Much simpler that way that him having to problem-solve.
The upshot is that we've elected to take any and all of the engine control away from the standard ECU by fitting a standalone DBW controller. It seems pointless leaving the standard ECU to do anything, as it'll always be the weak spot. Whilst the standard ECU was actually quite advanced in it's day, technology has moved on and there are better ways of going about things.
The only hard pill to swallow is the extra expense will be for nothing when it comes to the ITB install. Still, I should be able to make back a large proprotion of the extra outlay by selling the controller and ancilliaires on.
The car will be going on the dyno either today or tomorrow, so we should have some pub figures in the near future. From what we started with there should be a night and day improvement.
The anticiapted idle control issues have reared their head though. First off the good news - the throttle and idle speed regulation undertaken by the standard ECU continues to work fine, even though the new ECU is controlling the import factors. However, it turns out that the standard ECU cannot cope with the change in weight of the flywheel and the change in the plenum volume. Due to this we have occasional overshoot (stall) and a 'hunting' idle. In a way I'm glad the cause of the symptons are as Chris theorised. Much simpler that way that him having to problem-solve.
The upshot is that we've elected to take any and all of the engine control away from the standard ECU by fitting a standalone DBW controller. It seems pointless leaving the standard ECU to do anything, as it'll always be the weak spot. Whilst the standard ECU was actually quite advanced in it's day, technology has moved on and there are better ways of going about things.
The only hard pill to swallow is the extra expense will be for nothing when it comes to the ITB install. Still, I should be able to make back a large proprotion of the extra outlay by selling the controller and ancilliaires on.
The car will be going on the dyno either today or tomorrow, so we should have some pub figures in the near future. From what we started with there should be a night and day improvement.
Good to hear that the cause for the stalling you experienced has now been confirmed.
So do I understand correctly that the Adaptronic ECU will be the only controller in play, and that the standard ECU will be removed?
What changes to the wiring harness/loom are necessary to make this transition?
So do I understand correctly that the Adaptronic ECU will be the only controller in play, and that the standard ECU will be removed?
What changes to the wiring harness/loom are necessary to make this transition?
Lankan":3hehassd said:
Not quite. The standard ECU is still in place (and will remain so) as it still runs all the non-engine functions e.g. the dash. I could remove it completely, but there seems little point paying to redo Renault's work; they did the non-engine bit quite well. lol
Re exact changes made - being frank - I've absolutely no idea, that would be a question for Chris. Not that it's relevant for me, as my carpet has long since gone, but the changes made will be invisible as the extra controller and ECU etc sit alongside the standard ECU under the boot carpet.
Throttle controller was finally delivered yesterday and is now in and working well. Idle has been raised ever so slightly to counter the side effects of the TTV/plenum work. Car will be mapped today and tomorrow. So nearly time for those pub figures.
Can't wait to be able to take the car past 4k rpm and finally get to hear the induction, engine and exhaust system at full chat.
Can't wait to be able to take the car past 4k rpm and finally get to hear the induction, engine and exhaust system at full chat.
Sounds like the Cambridgeshire/Hertford countryside will soon be filled with the sound of vees in all their sonorous glory!! About time too!! Forget pub figures we can line our vees up and see the difference in real terms. I wont mind being humbled as you have a ph2 engine.
Without wanting to get egg on my face, I imagine the car should be comfortably faster than a standard ph2. Not night and day of course, but with the power up a bit, weight down by quite a bit (in comparison to a standard ph2) and the ph2 gear ratios it'll all add up. Anyhow, enough of Vee racing. When are we going to have my daily vs your daily??? 
Chris asked whether I wanted pops and bangs mapped in on the over run. Guess what I said....... lol
Chris asked whether I wanted pops and bangs mapped in on the over run. Guess what I said....... lol
taipan":3fw429pz said:Without wanting to get egg on my face, I imagine the car should be comfortably faster than a standard ph2. Not night and day of course, but with the power up a bit, weight down by quite a bit (in comparison to a standard ph2) and the ph2 gear ratios it'll all add up. Anyhow, enough of Vee racing. When are we going to have my daily vs your daily???
Chris asked whether I wanted pops and bangs mapped in on the over run. Guess what I said....... lol
Lol my daily v your daily! Speed its you economy its me!! I guess you said no I want my car to be as discreet as possible in tune with the other mods!! :rofl:
Scores on the doors. 259/226, which I guess may be slightly lower than I was expecting.
HOWEVER, the general consensus was that Renault were more than a little liberal with their OEM power figure (252bhp) and having seen a few run on SRR it seems 245ish is about where the standard ph2 engine is. So to have whacked on c15bhp only by getting more air in and then getting it out quicker is a bit of a result. I'm also happy with the torque figure (226 vs the OEM 221); really didn't want to be putting too much extra stress through the gearbox, bearing in mind my history with them and that it's been shown that they're the weak link. Will get the graphs up when I've got them.
Mustn't forget though that the main reason for all of this was to get rid of the probelms I was having not to get as much power out of the car as possible. Chris is taking it out for an hours shake-down today with live mapping if needed. Nothing if not thorough! Compared to what I gave him it's a night and day change. The engine had so much fuel going into it it was only thanks to the Trophy ignition system that it could fire at all. It was a bit of a mess really with the OEM ECU struggling at every point in the rev range to make the required calculations! Now, whilst having some nice gains, the car actually performs as it should and as you'd expect. Added to this the car's been future proofed for the ITB stage, as that would have definintely required brain surgery.
On the ITB front Chris has again proved invaluable. The main problem has always been the need for a throttle cable. Fine for 172/182, but not good for the mid-engined vee. Chris thinks he may have a solution but it's something that will require a bit of ingenuity as, as usual, muggins here is "the first" that will try it. If Chris can pull it off satisfactorily, it'll remove the throttle cable problem entirely and we may well see a few more ITB cars out there!
For now though the car is taxed, insured, MOTd and ready to be enjoyed :race:
HOWEVER, the general consensus was that Renault were more than a little liberal with their OEM power figure (252bhp) and having seen a few run on SRR it seems 245ish is about where the standard ph2 engine is. So to have whacked on c15bhp only by getting more air in and then getting it out quicker is a bit of a result. I'm also happy with the torque figure (226 vs the OEM 221); really didn't want to be putting too much extra stress through the gearbox, bearing in mind my history with them and that it's been shown that they're the weak link. Will get the graphs up when I've got them.
Mustn't forget though that the main reason for all of this was to get rid of the probelms I was having not to get as much power out of the car as possible. Chris is taking it out for an hours shake-down today with live mapping if needed. Nothing if not thorough! Compared to what I gave him it's a night and day change. The engine had so much fuel going into it it was only thanks to the Trophy ignition system that it could fire at all. It was a bit of a mess really with the OEM ECU struggling at every point in the rev range to make the required calculations! Now, whilst having some nice gains, the car actually performs as it should and as you'd expect. Added to this the car's been future proofed for the ITB stage, as that would have definintely required brain surgery.
On the ITB front Chris has again proved invaluable. The main problem has always been the need for a throttle cable. Fine for 172/182, but not good for the mid-engined vee. Chris thinks he may have a solution but it's something that will require a bit of ingenuity as, as usual, muggins here is "the first" that will try it. If Chris can pull it off satisfactorily, it'll remove the throttle cable problem entirely and we may well see a few more ITB cars out there!
For now though the car is taxed, insured, MOTd and ready to be enjoyed
:race:Its not the throttle cable thats stopped people doing it Jon. Thats a simple thing to sort. I'd say its because they are so intrusive to the overal car......as much as I'd like that!!
They are good results though matey. Realistic and real world in my opinion which is good. So now you have feck all excuse not to bring it Goodwood!!!
They are good results though matey. Realistic and real world in my opinion which is good. So now you have feck all excuse not to bring it Goodwood!!!
I think (and I may be remembering incorrectly) that that's what has stopped Fred from completing his conversion. The cable has to go such a long way unless you route it through the cabin!!! But, yes take your point that ITBs aren't going to be subtle as you need to forget about the standard covers for a start.
I thought the results were realistic as well, as all I've really done is very basic n/a tuning.
The main show I'm aiming for this year is Silverstone Classic. Few finshing touches to be applied before then however, not to mention getting the bleeding wrap off!
I thought the results were realistic as well, as all I've really done is very basic n/a tuning.
The main show I'm aiming for this year is Silverstone Classic. Few finshing touches to be applied before then however, not to mention getting the bleeding wrap off!
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