Top mounts V6 ph2 ?

[ClioSpyder]

Hi Nigel,

Yes, would be interested to hear your views on the LSD...........fitting my KW's when I'm back home in a few weeks time, but the LSD is also on my wish-list.

Please keep me inform on the outcome.

Cheers, Hoogi

 

[matt.v10]

Me to, feedback on both KW3's and LSD would be great. :approve:

 

[Lankan]

One other thing I am saying is that the standard suspension does not cause a detectable amount of flexing in the front end where as stiffer set up springs and the resultant alterations in castor and camber as the weight shift will require a stabilising device, on most competition cars it is done using part of the roll cage.

Nigel.

Indeed, you are right, but I guess one is stuck with how stiff the chassis/shell that comes with the car - adding a roll cage is a bit extreme for road use, especially for a GT like the Vee. However, if the Vee had a seam welded shell then it would have been more than enough. The suspension can compensate against flexing, but would need an adjustable set up to get the best out of it. For example, relating my experience here, the 964RS Lightweight has a seam welded shell, and quite a stiff suspension set up, especially at the front (3-way, 24mm front ARB and 18mm rear AR, and no strut brace. Driving it on (bumpy) roads was quite challenging (got slated by the press when it was released), but it was very good on track. The 964RS Clubsport (N-GT) included a seam welded shell and a welded-in roll cage – an out-and-out track car, so was even more extreme. The 993RS is more compliant on the road, and easier to cope with than the 964RS, but more adjustable, so you could set it up to your liking. On track it is equally good.

I understand that the Phase 2 has a sitffer rear subframe, which is probably why Renault didn’t install a rear ARB.

Here is what Evo had to say about the Phase 2’s chassis:
“Now, the chassis. As well as the wheelbase and track changes, the rear subframe is more rigid and the rear trailing arms are 10mm longer for less geometric variation as the wheels move. The front castor angle is up to six degrees, which is a lot; the idea is to give a greater increase in steering weight with rising cornering forces, and improve on-centre feel. The front anti-roll bar is stiffer, as are the front springs.

Overall front roll stiffness is more than doubled, a significant change given that the rear springs are only slightly stiffened and there's still no rear anti-roll bar (it would reduce traction out of corners). No wonder it understeers in the wet. Finally, the bump stops are longer, softer and so more progressive in their action: the sudden contacting of the old ones was one reason for the old car’s (Phase 1) abrupt on-limit behaviour. 'Porsche uses a similar solution,' says Clio V6 project guru Fabrice Cutarella.”

Interesting to read about how much stiffer the front end is when compared to the rear between the Phase 1 & 2. I do find the initial understeer in the dry to be rather annoying, so would certainly like to have that cured.

So what I am after is a Vee behaving in a similar manner to the above p-cars, whilst preserving its OEM look, and given that I am not likely to take it on track, have it set up for fast (dry) road use.

 

[Lankan]

But I thought the understeer was dialled into the ph2 to give you more of an idea/indication/leeway/warning to let you know when the it was going to go into snap oversteer. Better off leaving it as it is surely? On a wet track I found understeer very useful to gauge where the snap limit was. Would an LSD be more useful? Cure the understeer with slight power oversteer but not end up in a hedge with the aid of the lsd!! Or I am talking codswallop!!

Not codswallop at all Nas. As far as I know understeer was dialled in by the factory, and Evo have given us an explanation why this is so.

When you say "I found understeer very useful to gauge where the snap limit was", was that when accelerating out of a corner or going into a corner (under braking)?

Either way I would prefer a neutral front end in the dry and am not too bothered about how the Vee behaves in the wet as I am not anticipating (intentionally) taking the Vee out in the rain, and if I am caught out then I just have to be careful. No intention of tracking it either.

As regards the LSD, the only option for the Vee appears to be the Quaife ATB (which is a torque biasing diff, which uses helical gears as opposed to diff plates). It can certainly improve traction, but only on acceleration, and for it to be effective I understand both wheels must have some sort of traction. I will have one installed in April so will know what the effect is. Plate type diffs (like those in the 964RS, 993RS and Alfa SZ) have a certain locking ratio on both acceleration and deceleration (e.g. 40/65 in the 993RS). The latter is key for stability if you are into braking hard, and late, when going into corners. This is especially so for rear engine cars like 911's. Since there is so much rear end mass, and the forward weight transfer can make the car pivot around unless you brake in a straight line.

A previous discussion on the Quaife ATB can be found here: LINK

 

[V6 2HOT]

Understeer on acceleration out especially on longer corners like the ones at Bedford. Just start washing wide as you lay the power down and if you go too far back end comes round before you can say oooops! As much feel back on the LSD would be great. Previous feedback:

How much of a difference have the coilovers and lsd made on track compared to a standard car? Car dynamics?

Hi Hot

Not a massive improvement IMO.
I drove before 4 Jears with standard Coils and Diff a lot on tracks.

With LSD its posssible to accelerate a bit earlier ou of corner.

The KW Var. 3 is a bit better on fast corners and the vee looks nicer when a bit lower.
I was very happy with the standard coils over years, but after 75^000 miles and a lot of hard trackdays at almost limits i thought to replace it.

 

[Lankan]

Understeer on acceleration out especially on longer corners like the ones at Bedford. Just start washing wide as you lay the power down and if you go too far back end comes round before you can say oooops! As much feel back on the LSD would be great. Previous feedback:

How much of a difference have the coilovers and lsd made on track compared to a standard car? Car dynamics?

Hi Hot

Not a massive improvement IMO.
I drove before 4 Jears with standard Coils and Diff a lot on tracks.

With LSD its posssible to accelerate a bit earlier ou of corner.

The KW Var. 3 is a bit better on fast corners and the vee looks nicer when a bit lower.
I was very happy with the standard coils over years, but after 75^000 miles and a lot of hard trackdays at almost limits i thought to replace it.

Do you mean the backend comes around when you back off to kill the understeer? If so, what you describe is lift-off oversteer, and I believe the Quaife ATB may not help in this case.

Wrote off my first 911 (a cooking 993) this way, but in that instance I went into a bend too hot (at night, the street light was out so didn't see/know how acute the bend was) and lifted off too much (due to inexperience), the rear came around and hit the kerb before I could correct. I also had two passengers so the left side was heavier than the right, and the road was bending to the right, so all things considered it was an accident waiting to happen.

 

[V6 2HOT]

No not lift off oversteer. Just put your foot down a little more in the wet the rears have not got enough traction and it comes round. Would be nice if you could induce controlled oversteer and get round the corner but as we know the vee is not suited to 'drifting'! See that's the tricky bit with the vee. Lift off too quick around it comes. Put your foot down same result!!

 

[Lankan]

No not lift off oversteer. Just put your foot down a little more in the wet the rears have not got enough traction and it comes round. Would be nice if you could induce controlled oversteer and get round the corner but as we know the vee is not suited to 'drifting'! See that's the tricky bit with the vee. Lift off too quick around it comes. Put your foot down same result!!

Never experienced this myself (as yet), but don't intend to. I don't think slow in, fast out may apply in the wet! Lifting off indeed would be disastrous, especially in the wet. Have you tried easing off the throttle to kill the understeer, rather than lifting off and/or increasing steering angle? The latter will bring the back around faster when the fronts (finally) dig in. Seems like the Vee is going light at the front, at least initially, due to squat on rear (rearward load transfer), and it seems the inside wheel loses traction. I believe this is where a rear ARB will help - the Quaife ATB should certainly help as it should split the torque across both rear wheels, assuming that there is some traction to both.

 

[ClioSpyder]

Just going back to Top Mounts, are our options restricted to the following:

Pure Motorsport - Steel
K-Tec Racing - Anodised Black Alloy
Comp-Brake - Anodised Gold Alloy

Just been having a nose.............

 

[Lankan]

Just going back to Top Mounts, are our options restricted to the following:

Pure Motorsport - Steel
K-Tec Racing - Anodised Black Alloy
Comp-Brake - Anodised Gold Alloy

Just been having a nose.............

Appears to be the case. Comp-Brake also seem to do custom top mounts (i.e. to your specifications): LINK

 

[Cold fusion]

I did have a look at the Mark Fish top mounts they were very good but but not £340.00 good.

Nigel.

 

[Lankan]

Has anybody come across top mounts made by AST? LINK

Seems like a good product:
"AST uses the same materials and bearings as they use in the aviation industry. That is the reason that the top mounts are almost free of maintenance. AST guarantees a good quality product!"

"All AST Solid top mounts are made of high grade aviation aluminium and use top quality spherical bearings to eliminate play. All the aluminium parts are anodised and maintenance free."

Camber and Castor adjustable, and not a bad price, especially since they are custom built to order: LINK

 

[ClioSpyder]

Now here comes the stupid question of the day..............but if you don't ask.

Does the Clio V6 use the same top mounts as the Clio 182 (MKII) or are they individual/unique to the V6.

Seem to be the same item ????

Cheers,
Hoogi

 

[taipan]

Not that this calls for a debate on the virtues of STMs, but they only really make sense for those running aftermarket suspension and even then be prepared for some pretty harsh changes.

STMs remove the OEM give completely so everything is felt; potholes, pebbles, puddles etc as the chassis/body is effectively being used as an additional shock absorber. With aftermarket suspension the harshness can be compensated for somewhat by dialling down the dampers (to the detriment of the overall handling ironically) but with the OEM stuff it's just going to be pretty miserable really.

Just my 2ps for those considering them.

 

[Lankan]

STMs remove the OEM give completely so everything is felt; potholes, pebbles, puddles etc as the chassis/body is effectively being used as an additional shock absorber. With aftermarket suspension the harshness can be compensated for somewhat by dialling down the dampers (to the detriment of the overall handling ironically) but with the OEM stuff it's just going to be pretty miserable really.

Indeed, that is a given (similar to using rosejoints and solid engine/gearbox mounts), and one would expect anybody who goes down this route to buy into this before committing themselves. STM's also put additional strain on the other components that make up the suspension the set up.

Which STM's do you have installed in your Vee, along with the BC coilovers?

 

[taipan]

OEM ones at mo. Will get the BCs set up properly and then see whether STMs are called for. The car will never see a track day so it begs the question what's the point really!!

If I ever decided to take the plunge I'd be speaking with Mark Fish though

 

[Lankan]

OEM ones at mo. Will get the BCs set up properly and then see whether STMs are called for. The car will never see a track day so it begs the question what's the point really!!

If I ever decided to take the plunge I'd be speaking with Mark Fish though

Great, would be interested to hear your views on the wear factor on the OEM mounts, especially with fast road use. STM's do offer more feedback,, albeit with side effects (but I prefer that), at least they did on the my RS Porsches when compared to their cooking versions.

I will not be going for coilovers on the Vee until next year now, so plenty of time to evaluate my options.

 

[ClioSpyder]

The reason I am looking into Solid Top Mounts is after a conversation I had with Scott at SG Motorsport who advised me to go down this route if I'm going to install my KW's.

Apparently the standard Top Mount's aren't the best and also affect the quality of suspension set-up.

My last car had solid TM's and was Rose Jointed and was very harsh..............but they do handle, and lets face it that can be a V6's weakness :s

Again, only my view and would like to hear anybodies angle, thought etc etc.

Cheers again,
Hoogi

 

[ClioSpyder]

Ordered the K-Tec Solid Top Mounts as they seem well made and a good price.

The standard Top Mounts with the KW's is just awful.............the front end feel is all over the place.

So, once home I'll fit these and then go for a set up and corner weight section.

Looks like I'll change the seats next year - but to be honest I don't find the standard ones too bad at the moment.

Cheers,
Hoogi

 

[Brembov6]

Ordered the K-Tec Solid Top Mounts as they seem well made and a good price.

The standard Top Mounts with the KW's is just awful.............the front end feel is all over the place.

So, once home I'll fit these and then go for a set up and corner weight section.

Looks like I'll change the seats next year - but to be honest I don't find the standard ones too bad at the moment.

Cheers,
Hoogi

We need pictures of your car. :approve: