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Top mounts V6 ph2 ?
- Thread starter Grippy255
- Start date
Nigel's mentioning of Pure Motorsport caught my attention...
If some day in the future I decide to go for solid mounts (and I will) then THIS is what it's going to be. Makes a pretty good impression on me. Unfortunately I have never seen rear top mounts. Is there something out there somewhere? Possibly even adjustable?
If some day in the future I decide to go for solid mounts (and I will) then THIS is what it's going to be. Makes a pretty good impression on me. Unfortunately I have never seen rear top mounts. Is there something out there somewhere? Possibly even adjustable?
hualpa_jo":i3r0zz3p said:Nigel's mentioning of Pure Motorsport caught my attention...
If some day in the future I decide to go for solid mounts (and I will) then THIS is what it's going to be. Makes a pretty good impression on me. Unfortunately I have never seen rear top mounts. Is there something out there somewhere? Possibly even adjustable?
Hi Jonas
Come on we order 2 Set's for our 2 Vee's [smilie=yay.gif]
Sorry but I have to disappoint you. Those things are pretty low in my priority list due to my (permanent) financial shortage :tumble:
But what about you order it (2 sets if you want) tell me if its worth anything after you fitted it and I'll fit it myself anyway just later? :race:
But what about you order it (2 sets if you want) tell me if its worth anything after you fitted it and I'll fit it myself anyway just later? :race:
The Pure Motorsport top mount + strut brace package is an interesting one (and very good value too), and something I have been considering.
Question is can the strut brace be installed without cutting/chopping parts of the luggage tray, and once installed could one remove the tray without having to remove (one side of) the struct brace? I also questioned Pure Motorsport on the longevity of the spherical bearings that come with their top mounts.
Here is what one of their Directors had to say:
"I would say from looking at your photo that some of the luggage tray would need to be cut away on the right hand side of the car to fit the strut brace and the brace (and possibly the brace mounts) would need to be removed to get the luggage tray out.
The bearings last quite well – I have some in my car that have done over 15k miles and they are still fine.
The brace would sit in front of, and slightly above the top mounts."
When the time comes I will be ordering these and hope that the strut brace can be installed without having to surgically remove parts of the luggage tray.
Question is can the strut brace be installed without cutting/chopping parts of the luggage tray, and once installed could one remove the tray without having to remove (one side of) the struct brace? I also questioned Pure Motorsport on the longevity of the spherical bearings that come with their top mounts.
Here is what one of their Directors had to say:
"I would say from looking at your photo that some of the luggage tray would need to be cut away on the right hand side of the car to fit the strut brace and the brace (and possibly the brace mounts) would need to be removed to get the luggage tray out.
The bearings last quite well – I have some in my car that have done over 15k miles and they are still fine.
The brace would sit in front of, and slightly above the top mounts."
When the time comes I will be ordering these and hope that the strut brace can be installed without having to surgically remove parts of the luggage tray.
Cold fusion
New Member
Dulan,
The strut brace fits fine but the tray cannot be fitted after the brace is in place without damage. if you cut the tray to make it fit eventually it will split in all the wrong places..
Nigel.
The strut brace fits fine but the tray cannot be fitted after the brace is in place without damage. if you cut the tray to make it fit eventually it will split in all the wrong places..
Nigel.
Nigel, thanks for your feedback. Didn't realise you had tried the to fit the strut brace. Real shame since it should tighten the front end nicely, albeit rather overkill for road use. However, I was willing to give it a go as it presented good value as a package.Cold fusion":t4mkqbwq said:Dulan,
The strut brace fits fine but the tray cannot be fitted after the brace is in place without damage. if you cut the tray to make it fit eventually it will split in all the wrong places..
Nigel.
As regards your comment about the "luggage tray splitting in all the wrong places", is this something you experienced yourself?
Dulan
Cold fusion
New Member
A strut brace would stiffen things up at the front and would improve handling by a minute amount.
I have fitted a strut brace in the past and had to cut the tray to be able to still be able to use it, the benefit of the strut brace was not really detectable, but I never took the car on a track where the benefits would have been detected. I do not think they are necessary for the road.
A new front tray in 2008 cost me £141.60 and it took 4 months to arrive.
Nigel.
I have fitted a strut brace in the past and had to cut the tray to be able to still be able to use it, the benefit of the strut brace was not really detectable, but I never took the car on a track where the benefits would have been detected. I do not think they are necessary for the road.
A new front tray in 2008 cost me £141.60 and it took 4 months to arrive.
Nigel.
I know the K-Tec one does need the tray to be cut since it sits flat relative to the strut towers, and intrudes more into the middle of the luggage tray, but the one from Pure Motorsport sits a bit higher and only a few centimetres ahead of the strut towers, so was hoping that it would not require any surgery on the luggage tray.Cold fusion":2yo8vmu7 said:A strut brace would stiffen things up at the front and would improve handling by a minute amount.
I have fitted a strut brace in the past and had to cut the tray to be able to still be able to use it, the benefit of the strut brace was not really detectable, but I never took the car on a track where the benefits would have been detected. I do not think they are necessary for the road.
A new front tray in 2008 cost me £141.60 and it took 4 months to arrive.
Nigel.
Agree, that the brace does not offer up much for road use, but does make a difference on track - at least that has been my experience with other marques. It is a good addition to tighten up the front end and reduce chassis flex on late braking coupled with hard cornering, especially on bumpy surfaces. However, sacrificing the luggage tray is not worth the hassle and expense.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
From what I can see in the pictures the brace is placed ahead of the towers so you can access the reservoirs for coolant and power steering fluid. In the vee both of them aren't there so what about mounting it "the wrong way round" so the brace ends up behind the towers leaving more room for the tray? However the brace fluid reservoir might become a problem but honestly I have no idea where it is placed in a RHD clio. Just a thought anyway...
I learned that stiffer means less grip and I believe this is for ARBs as well as for the whole front end. This would mean even more under steering (the vee does what is known as under steer right?). Are there any experts around?
I learned that stiffer means less grip and I believe this is for ARBs as well as for the whole front end. This would mean even more under steering (the vee does what is known as under steer right?). Are there any experts around?
Don't think the strut brace could be fitted the wrong way around since the brake fluid reservoir may get in the way - on RHD Vees the reservoir is on the (left) passenger side.
The stiffer the damping/setup the lesser the grip on bumpy surfaces (i.e. the wheels cannot maintain contact with the surface), which I believe has nothing to do with chassis flex? The key thing is to ensure the wheels (tyres) maintain contact with the road surface at all times by having an optimum setup (e.g. damping, ARB settings, and of course correct geometry settings), but have the chassis as rigid as possible. Installing adjustable coilovers, ideally those where compression and rebound can be adjusted independently, will certainly help. I am no expert, but experience of owning factory built track cars, and reading/researching the subject, has certainly helped me understand why they are built and setup that way.
My experience is that the Phase 2's on standard suspension do understeer on initial entry (certainly mine does). As such, if adjustable coilovers are installed then this could be dialled out, which is something I want to achieve in due course.
The stiffer the damping/setup the lesser the grip on bumpy surfaces (i.e. the wheels cannot maintain contact with the surface), which I believe has nothing to do with chassis flex? The key thing is to ensure the wheels (tyres) maintain contact with the road surface at all times by having an optimum setup (e.g. damping, ARB settings, and of course correct geometry settings), but have the chassis as rigid as possible. Installing adjustable coilovers, ideally those where compression and rebound can be adjusted independently, will certainly help. I am no expert, but experience of owning factory built track cars, and reading/researching the subject, has certainly helped me understand why they are built and setup that way.
My experience is that the Phase 2's on standard suspension do understeer on initial entry (certainly mine does). As such, if adjustable coilovers are installed then this could be dialled out, which is something I want to achieve in due course.
As said just a thought...
I think you misunderstood what I tried to say. With less grip I meant: If you have a stiff ARB up front and none in the back (lets say standard vee) and you are going around a corner then you have optimal grip on the back tires as both are on the ground whereas in extreme cases only one front wheel has grip because the ARB lifts the other off the ground when the car rolls. If you add a rear ARB the inner rear wheel gets less load and the inner front wheel gets more at the same time thus reducing rear grip relative to front grip. So from my understanding a front strut brace (and therefore less chassis flex on the front end) reduces front grip relative to rear grip which means more under steer.
Am I wrong?
I think you misunderstood what I tried to say. With less grip I meant: If you have a stiff ARB up front and none in the back (lets say standard vee) and you are going around a corner then you have optimal grip on the back tires as both are on the ground whereas in extreme cases only one front wheel has grip because the ARB lifts the other off the ground when the car rolls. If you add a rear ARB the inner rear wheel gets less load and the inner front wheel gets more at the same time thus reducing rear grip relative to front grip. So from my understanding a front strut brace (and therefore less chassis flex on the front end) reduces front grip relative to rear grip which means more under steer.
Am I wrong?
Indeed, I did misunderstand what you were trying to convey.
In any case I don't think it would be of any use installing a strut brace if you have the factory (OEM) suspension and expect things to improve, and for the reasons you state above, it is more likely to make things worse. What I would do is to have coilovers installed (with top mounts), have a full corner weight and geometry set up done first, and then look at other options.
Don't think the Phase 2 has an adjustable ARB (e.g. soft, medium, hard etc) in front, which his probably why you say "stiff ARB up front", and no ARB at the rear. Has anybody installed an (adjustable) rear ARB in a Phase 2? Without having adjustable ARB's I would think set up options may be quite limited. For example, the 993RS' suspension includes Bilstein adjustable coilovers with solid tops mounts all round, front strut brace, a 5-way adjustable ARB in front and a 3-way adjustable one at the back. Both ARB's are 20 mm thick. The default settings from the factory are for standard road use (i.e. both ARB's are set in the middle and ride height is set at 30mm lower in front and 40mm lower at the back when compared to a standard 993). So there are quite a few options for setting the car up according to the surface and driving style for normal or fast road use or track days.
This is a route I am yet to travel with my Vee but wish to take it one step at a time.
In any case I don't think it would be of any use installing a strut brace if you have the factory (OEM) suspension and expect things to improve, and for the reasons you state above, it is more likely to make things worse. What I would do is to have coilovers installed (with top mounts), have a full corner weight and geometry set up done first, and then look at other options.
Don't think the Phase 2 has an adjustable ARB (e.g. soft, medium, hard etc) in front, which his probably why you say "stiff ARB up front", and no ARB at the rear. Has anybody installed an (adjustable) rear ARB in a Phase 2? Without having adjustable ARB's I would think set up options may be quite limited. For example, the 993RS' suspension includes Bilstein adjustable coilovers with solid tops mounts all round, front strut brace, a 5-way adjustable ARB in front and a 3-way adjustable one at the back. Both ARB's are 20 mm thick. The default settings from the factory are for standard road use (i.e. both ARB's are set in the middle and ride height is set at 30mm lower in front and 40mm lower at the back when compared to a standard 993). So there are quite a few options for setting the car up according to the surface and driving style for normal or fast road use or track days.
This is a route I am yet to travel with my Vee but wish to take it one step at a time.
Cold fusion
New Member
Hi,
The strut brace does not make handling worse on standard suspension it did not make any detectable improvement so was a waste of time fitting it.
Nigel.
The strut brace does not make handling worse on standard suspension it did not make any detectable improvement so was a waste of time fitting it.
Nigel.
Thanks for that Nigel. So what you are saying is that for road use the addition of a strut brace to the OEM suspension set up did not make any difference to the initial understeer dialled in by the factory, which is what I was kind of expecting to hear?Cold fusion":1tify4w0 said:Hi,
The strut brace does not make handling worse on standard suspension it did not make any detectable improvement so was a waste of time fitting it.
Nigel.
Cold fusion
New Member
Lankan":2uisub0g said:Thanks for that Nigel. So what you are saying is that for road use the addition of a strut brace to the OEM suspension set up did not make any difference to the initial understeer dialled in by the factory, which is what I was kind of expecting to hear?Cold fusion":2uisub0g said:Hi,
The strut brace does not make handling worse on standard suspension it did not make any detectable improvement so was a waste of time fitting it.
Nigel.
One other thing I am saying is that the standard suspension does not cause a detectable amount of flexing in the front end where as stiffer set up springs and the resultant alterations in castor and camber as the weight shift will require a stabilising device, on most competition cars it is done using part of the roll cage.
Nigel.
But I thought the understeer was dialled into the ph2 to give you more of an idea/indication/leeway/warning to let you know when the it was going to go into snap oversteer. Better off leaving it as it is surely? On a wet track I found understeer very useful to gauge where the snap limit was. Would an LSD be more useful? Cure the understeer with slight power oversteer but not end up in a hedge with the aid of the lsd!! Or I am talking codswallop!!
ClioSpyder
New Member
Excellent use of the phase "Codswallop"...............not used enough if you ask me :approve:
By the way, any details on how/where you need to drill the Top-Plates for the Suspension Top Mounts ?
By the way, any details on how/where you need to drill the Top-Plates for the Suspension Top Mounts ?
Cold fusion
New Member
I will let you know if the LSD does it's job I am having one fitted soon + KW3's.
Nigel.
Nigel.
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