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More Ethanol in petrol from 2021

Lankan

Active Member
Given that the percentage of Ethanol in petrol is set to increase in 2021, is anybody planning on using any so-called Etahnol cleaners in their tanks?

If not, what preventative measures should one undertake to avoid damage caused by the increased use of Ethanol?
Everything you need to know about using E10 fuel with your classic car

"However, the RAC has warned owners of cars built before 2002 that they should steer clear of the new petrol."

"...it is likely to mean increased fuel bills, costly vehicle maintenance or, for those that fail to take action, damage to cherished cars."

"Anyone owning a car made before 2002 is advised not to use E10 – and it can even affect cars made up until 2011. That’s a good number of so-called modern classic cars, in addition to classic models."

Those running N54-engined BMWs (at least in the US) appear to recommend this product to avoid carbon build-up and clogged injectors: E85 Ethanol Cleaner

Fortunately, Super Unleaded will not be subjected to this until 2026.
 
Hi Dulan
I come across problems caused by ethanol all the time and on more modern stuff that should be ethanol friendly. the US has had the most problems with this as they have had !0% for some time now, A particular problem that i have encountered is that the E10 needs more fuel for the mixture to be correct, the mixture needs to be around 14.1:1 as apposed to 14.7:1,
I cut this from google.

"The ideal (theoretical) air-fuel ratio, for a complete combustion, is called stoichiometric air-fuel ratio. For a gasoline (petrol) engine, the stoichiometric air-fuel ratio is around 14.7:1. This means that, in order to burn completely 1 kg of fuel, we need 14.7 kg of air."

Remember this is by weight when you do the sums.

So in an older vehicle like the Clio the fuel mixture will be slightly weak, ok for going to the shops but not good for best power.
There are ways around this and my preferred method is to raise the fuel pressure slightly which is not easy in the Clio, or a remap, easy but costly.

Obviously E85 is a different matter but for completeness the mixture runs about 9.5:1 with E85, Don't use this fuel as you risk burnt pistons and engine seizure. Cars are designed slightly differently to run this fuel but the upside is more power.

Another issue is the increased ethanol content WILL attack your rubber hoses, even on the PH2 cars and also fuel pump impellers (I am in anticipation of brisk sales in fuel pumps for 2021!) stick with super for as long as you can.

A particular brand of Italian motorcycles suffer when using E10 in that it causes the plastic fuel tank to swell, this is not a problem until you remove the tank, then it is a pig to put back as it grows physically in size.

I hope this info is useful.
 
Thank you, Spike, very useful information. Trust you keeping are well.

From your response above, I will summarise my understanding:
1. Increased fuel consumption due to E10 can be mitigated by having the ECU remapped. [v6plaque]002[/v6plaque] has been remapped to run on Optimax/V-Power, the only fuel used since 2011.

2. Never used E85, and no plans to do so on any of the cars.

3. I am quite keen to find out more about the following:
"Another issue is the increased ethanol content WILL attack your rubber hoses, even on the PH2 cars and also fuel pump impellers..."
Guess this means all rubber hoses in the fuel system and the fuel pump will need changing once we switch to E10 for any car that runs super unleaded. Just seen you post re Fuel Pumps. What is the lead time to have one on an exchange basis?
 
Dulan

If you map the car to use E10 you will actually use more fuel however only at full power or open loop settings (open loop is where the vehicle runs on the ecu map instead of feedback from the lambda sensor. when being driven conservatively the lambda sensor should adjust the fuel injected to gain the correct fuel air ratio. You do see problems with older cars that have slow Lambda sensors, this is due to the age of the technology and the age and condition of the Lambda, Lambdas fail by getting slower with time.
E85 and the Clio Just don't!
Rubber hoses will be affected, by how much well no one really knows. a good option would be to swap out all the hoses but cost will be high. And as for the fuel pumps until they start failing dont panic, the lead time is based on the availability of the pumps, and i get mine from the states, also the Postal service which at the moment is a shambles. If you were to order and drop a deposit i would figure around four to six weeks. if i have the pump and there is no other problems like regulator, plastics and filter i would say a week.
The one area that comes to mind where i would be looking for issues is atop the engine where the rubber fuel pipe joins the two fuel rails together , i have seen fuel pipes go mushy here with the heat so it would be at most risk and if it were to fail the risk would be from high to catastrophic. I cannot remember if the Clio uses any rubber in this area so answers on a postcard.
 
From the ACEA document....

Renault Group
Dacia:
E10 is cleared for use in all petrol driven Dacia vehicles.
Renault:
E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Renault petrol vehicles marketed since 1st January 1997,
with the exception of the following models:
• RENAULT 19
• Megane 1 with 2.0 litre F5R 700 direct injection petrol engine
• Megane 1 with 2.0 litre F5R 740 direct injection petrol engine
• Laguna 2 with 2.0 litre F5R 782 direct injection petrol engine
and the following models marketed between 1st January 2000 and 31st December 2002:
• Laguna 2 with 2.0 litre F4R 764 Turbo engine
• Laguna 2 with 2.0 litre F4R 765 Turbo engine
• Espace 4 with 2.0 litre F4R 790 Turbo engine
• Espace 4 with 2.0 l F4R 794 Turbo engine
• Velsatis with 2.0 litre F4R 762 Turbo engine
• Velsatis with 2.0 litre F4R 763 Turbo engine
• Avantime with 2.0 litre F4R 760 Turbo engine
• Avantime with 2.0 litre F4R 761 Turbo engine
 
All good info Martin, Clio not mentioned then?

The problems we come across with the ethanol issues is that whilst vehicles are written down as cleared for E10 or Ethanol Fuel use we are finding that the problems don't occur Very often on vehicles that are up to 10 years old, and this is the point in time that the manufacturer feels that you need to buy another vehicle. Thats what the scrappage schemes are all about
I honestly think that none of the manufacturers give a flying fig about you or your vehicle after the 10 year point. proven by poor spares support, and this is the essence of the forum we are in! Basically, sort it yourselves guys.
You only have to look at manufacturers service schedules to work that one out, belt changes are getting longer and certainly on one of my vehicles spark plugs are not even given a mention. If it goes bang after 10 years, who cares apart from the owners. Blunt and possibly shocking answer but that is how it is.

Part of the answer:
Join a respectable forum where the members can share the problems and knowledge without scoffing at each others downfall and collectively fix or address the problems as they arise. I feel v6clio.net to be one of those such clubs.

This attitude does not seem to carry over to the USA possibly due to sales numbers. I am buying panels and parts to restore a 69 Dodge and have just purchased all the panels i need that have come from Chrysler approved sources, all the fuel system parts are available that are ethanol friendly, as is all the information to keep these older vehicles on the roads. Now i'm not saying that this is full manufacturer support but it does make the situation tolerable.

One more interesting point is that the Reno dealers like the chance of displaying a nice Ph1 or Ph2 or even an Alpine in the showrooms but never seem to mention that they only give parts support for 10 years (or about 6 with the Clio).

My letterbox is always closed!
 
Thank you guys.

I think the E10 debate will rage on, and will only stop when (not if) vehicles start breaking down or are affected by the increase in ethanol after the UK moves to E10 in 2021.

Given that [v6plaque]002[/v6plaque] is already mapped to run on Shell Optimax/V-power, I will continue to use it This will give me 5 years' grace before I need to find a solution since super unleaded is supposed to move from E5 to E10 in 2026.

The '10-year' time span that Spike speaks about above is very true. We may soon find that renewable warranties will soon stop when a car is 10 years old. I remember the days when Porsche used to allow warranties to be extended for 15 years, even if it is an import, as long as a full Porsche service history (and inspections) was maintained. I extended the warranty on a German-import 993RS that was 7 years old when I purchased it and had 107,000 kms on the clock, and it was a well-used example with frequent track work and used for inter-continental jaunts. I owned it for a further 11 years without any issue and drove the pants off it - sold it only because they started becoming stupidly expensive, and became a bit of a collector's car. Sad that even Porsche don't make cars like that anymore...
 
For info it’s worth doing a Google search “how to remove ethanol from petrol/gas”, I found a host of sites telling you how to do it after the suggestion of the gentleman who’s letterbox is closed!, :approve: :bow:
 
firmly nailed shut....but how, i shout to remove ethanol from the fuel.

I did once come across a guy that added water to the fuel then after a week drained more water out than was put in, by measuring the amounts he could tell you the content of the fuel. This obviously using the principle of the water drawing the ethanol out of the fuel to the water increasing the water volume.

Sounded goofy to me but it does work.

come on Simon, out goof that one!
 
So, further to the discussion above, when the time comes and assuming that such fuels will still be available, who will be looking to switch to something like Sunoco Optima (98 RON)? LINK

It seems like Esso Supreme+ Unleaded (97 RON) is ethanol-free, except, for some reason, in certain geographical areas: LINK

The attached is also useful to understand DoT's stance on the need for such measures - Clauses 3.9, 3.10, 3.40, 3.42, 3.43 & 3.44 are relevant;
View attachment DoT - Introducing E10 Petrol Consultation (Mar 2020).pdf
 
Lankan":2rtrqef0 said:
So, further to the discussion above, when the time comes and assuming that such fuels will still be available, who will be looking to switch to something like Sunoco Optima (98 RON)? LINK

It seems like Esso Supreme+ Unleaded (97 RON) is ethanol-free, except, for some reason, in certain geographical areas: LINK

The attached is also useful to understand DoT's stance on the need for such measures - Clauses 3.9, 3.10, 3.40, 3.42, 3.43 & 3.44 are relevant;
DoT - Introducing E10 Petrol Consultation (Mar 2020).pdf
Bugger :evil: :evil: wee Jimmy Crankie must have told them to wreck all cars over 20 in Scotland :evil:
 
Esso has just announced that their new Synergy Supreme+ 99 unleaded petrol is ethanol free. :) :approve:

Time to make the switch from Shell V-Power...
 
6b08ae2e28119c3d283a1aeff95d5b21.jpg


…and then you get to the petrol station and only E10 is available!
 
Had similar issue all this week. Is it just lack of HGV drivers or is this the new normal. "Sorry E5 hard to get and not much demand so we are just doing E10"
 
Interesting.

Having switched to Esso Synergy Supreme+ 99 soon after my last post (above), and never had any issues finding service stations that offered this variant. However, the last time I filled up was on 27th August (ESSO EG BELLFIELDS, Guildford) when I took the Exige S RGB in for its service. I didn't have any issue at our local Esso service station when I last filled up the Vee (on my way to Silverstone Classic on 29th July) or during our trip to the Northern Lakes, early June> as such, so far, never had any issues finding an Esso service station that offered Synergy Supreme+ 99.

However, I wonder whether such shortages are likely to be commonplace. If so, long trips will need careful planning!
 
Here is an interesting write up on the issue we all will be facing in the near future: E10 Fuel Explained

"Is Ethanol as effective in running an engine as normal fuels?
No. Ethanol has a ‘Petrol Gallon Efficiency’ value of around 1.5. This means to replace the energy of 1 gallon of petrol, it needs 1.5 times the volume of ethanol needed.
"

If the above is true then this is simply a money-making exercise! :evil:

Does anybody know any different?
 
I have been using Esso Supreme (and its previous incarnation) for many years and regularly check for ethanol content and currently here in the South of England there is none. :)

I don't imagine there will be any supply problems, who wouldn't want to sell a more expensive product ? and I'm sure the Government will be more than happy with the extra tax revenue !

I've seen first hand the damage ethanol can do and have plans in place to remove the ethanol when the time comes, certainly for my 'older more special vehicles'.
 
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