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Gearbox woes

lee1972":123qi4lt said:
hello everyone just been reading about a group buy on a quaife gearbox .i think this would be so noisey in the clio has i have one in my escort cosworth and it does not make the car a pleasure to drive like the clio.

I only had one fitted too escort because i blown 3 gearboxes because of the power 525bhp ,there is another gearbox rebuiler called GEARS in ford car side i well ring monday 15th to see if they do anything as my box is the same :race:
:approve: :approve:
 
taipan":3d3zdkmp said:
So costwise are we saying a change of box would be more economical? The aim is to get a strong box capable of taking the oem torque and more if engine mods are done. I couldn't care less about keeping things standard and the pk6 has disappointed me.

I don't think Quaife is the right company for the development - for a start they don't sound keen. Maybe some straight cut gears in a Volvo box. Isn't this something you've looked into a lot Brett? Is fitting a different box into the current space the main headache?

Basically it doesn't really matter where you go to get a gearset developed, its going to cost shed loads and for good reason, its alot of skilled work that goes in to it. I used Jack Knight Developments a few years back and it cost more than Quaife. I would tend avoid "cheaper" lesser made gears in a road car as back lash can be terrible. Quaife are to such a good quality that its not overly bad but is noticable.

Like I've already said, in my opinion, changing the 'box is the way forward and it open up a complete new world. You wouldn't need to uprate many of them unless you were feeling brave as they are much stronger than the pk6 to begin with. At least that way you still have all the refinment you've ever wanted. Fitting wise, many boxes have the mounting points in a very similar area so something can always be knocked up to fit the 'box to the car. Ive always wanted a paddle shift gearbox in my vee......VW DSG box anyone???
 
So is it as simple as choose replacement box, make up adapter plate to fix box to existing mountings, connect box, drive away?? Not mechanically minded at all :s As you can probably tell!!

Now choosing a replacement box for which Quaife already engineer straight cut gears..... :)
 
taipan":wr5yj60h said:
So is it as simple as choose replacement box, make up adapter plate to fix box to existing mountings, connect box, drive away?? Not mechanically minded at all :s As you can probably tell!!

Now choosing a replacement box for which Quaife already engineer straight cut gears..... :)

LMAO!! You just want a sccr 'box don't you!!!

A few things that are needed for a conversion;

1. A 6 speed TRANSVERSE gearbox

2. A 'box that will fit to the left hand side of the car.

3. A 'box that is cable operated.

4. A bellhousing adaptor.

5. A clutch made up of the center section from the gearbox model and the outer from the engine type. (Would probably be best to uprate the later along with a stronger spring diaphram)

6. A set of cut 'n' shut driveshaft containing vee outer hub ends and the gearbox model inners.

7. A modified, remachined center driveshaft bearing/bracket.

8. A new fabricated gearbox mount if needed.

9. A cup of tea now its finished
 
Lol. Yes. Would love a sccr box!!

Also lmao at the things involved. Knew it wouldn't be unbolt old box, throw away, bolt on new box :)

Great checklist though. Any Volvo/Ford boxes that spring to mind? Also what are your thoughts on a Supra box. Not suitable?
 
Oldskoolbaby":2ksb8uh1 said:
Gearing one capable of 170mph at the redline would be pointless.

Why's this Brett? Purely for better acceleration purposes?

taipan":2ksb8uh1 said:
I couldn't care less about keeping things standard and the pk6 has disappointed me.

Amen.

Oldskoolbaby":2ksb8uh1 said:
VW DSG box anyone???

Not too fussed on having flappy paddles, I mean, I'm quite happy with the car remaining original as far as looks are concerned, it's the power and drivetrain I want to be able to work on, which is why I want a better gearbox, the standard one cannot keep up with standard power. Would this gearbox be easier to fix with paddles or can it be mated to a gear stick?
 
Oldskoolbaby":15zf0k80 said:
taipan":15zf0k80 said:
So is it as simple as choose replacement box, make up adapter plate to fix box to existing mountings, connect box, drive away?? Not mechanically minded at all :s As you can probably tell!!

Now choosing a replacement box for which Quaife already engineer straight cut gears..... :)

LMAO!! You just want a sccr 'box don't you!!!

A few things that are needed for a conversion;

1. A 6 speed TRANSVERSE gearbox

2. A 'box that will fit to the left hand side of the car.

3. A 'box that is cable operated.

4. A bellhousing adaptor.

5. A clutch made up of the center section from the gearbox model and the outer from the engine type. (Would probably be best to uprate the later along with a stronger spring diaphram)

6. A set of cut 'n' shut driveshaft containing vee outer hub ends and the gearbox model inners.

7. A modified, remachined center driveshaft bearing/bracket.

8. A new fabricated gearbox mount if needed.

9. A cup of tea now its finished

brett, you forgot no 10, a wing and a prayer. like i said "pissing into the wind".
get a std box. overhaul it properly ( by yourself if you cannot trust anyone else), fit it with the best oil you can and forget all about straight cut gears.
 
Not sure what you mean by pissing in the wind? Pissing money? Pissing effort? In the scheme of things a couple of grand on a gearbox that'll actually work is a better spend that say some cromodoras or an exhaust surely!!!

What about fitting a box that Quaife or another gear company already manufacture straight cut gears for? That'll limit the cost.

Personally I don't think reengineering the current box is the way to go necessarily. Sure it'll avoid all the issues that come with a transplant but ultimately the design flaws will still be there. Also if engine mods are in the horizon (certainly are for me) then, for peace of mind if nothing else, I'd rather have a box that's proven durable in other applications than one that's consistently proven unreliable in the vee!!
 
I picked my car up of Motech on Saturday. All the bearings in the gearbox have been replaced and things are now a lot quiter! I also got a new clutch and slave cylinder fitted. Worthwhile becuase on closer inspection the clutch cover was cracked. Looks like someone had given number 202 a good thrashing at some point before i got hold of it.

Lucklily the noisy bearing on 3rd/4th had not seized completely and there was no damage to the casing.

Big thanks to Motech for doing the job.
 
If your looking to tune the old girl properly & dont care about it being standard, some old posts from Mike T which have stuck in my mind:

Re gearbox

MikeT":14zj32mn said:
evo transaxle will work with adaption

engine & gearbox

MikeT":14zj32mn said:
best fit was an evo engine - loads more power/much less weight and the 4 wheel drive option
......
MikeT":14zj32mn said:
I measured it up and its not such a big deal - go with MOTEC ecu & better fuel pump and the main fabrication is engine mounts, exhaust and driveshafts.

Any decent Motorsport workshop could do it - easier still with a chargecooler rather the air to air intercooler.

You can also get a sequential box if you wish!

Would have been cheaper than turboing the V6!!

Other engine that fits is the small v8 ferrari lump that went crossways in the 4 seater ferrari - bit expensive to tune though

Still gonna cost the best part of the value of the car, but i bet any other route you take would be the same, at least this one would reduce the centre of gravity, overall weight and be relativley easy to maintian as its a mass manufactured box and engine.

At 300bhp it would be a rocket and pretty safe in terms of temperatures id imagine, but you could go much higher...

although, it wouldnt be a v6 anymore!!!
 
Cheers Duncan :approve:

Ideally I want to maintain the V6. Not necessarily the stock one (still exploring V6 transplants ;) ) but I want to wait until DP engineering come back to me about the turbo kit they've developed for the engine. I'm also in the process of trying to speak to Swindon Race engines re a fully built engine. Not sure on the road manners/maintenance overheads on that one though :s

Ideal scenario would be to turbo the existing engine (with internals) but there are some discussions whether the standard block can take it - it could be an expensive mistake finding out it couldn't!! The other option would be to transplant a.n. other V6 in there and then go ahead and turbo that. The wildcard could be to try and shoehorn a 2JZ-GTE engine in there, not a V6 but an in-line six is close enough. Not looked into engine transplants at all really though.

I've trawled through loads of old posts between Mike T, v6max, Brett, Timv6, Ray, Spike etc. and all of them are pretty much on the money about tuning the car. Yes, lots of money will need to be invested but then this doesn't all have to be dumped in at once as the car isn't an everyday car for me: I've used mine precisely 6 times so far this year :) !!

I think that if you're going to tune then you have to go in with your eyes open and be prepared to say goodbye to £20k, if not more. To the majority that is ludicrous amounts of money but I look at the bigger picture. £20k may see me to a 400bhp, rwd, hot hatch, which will mean, including the car, I've paid a little over what a brand new Megane Trophy would cost. Yes, I realise I won't be able to recoup this investment but then again I'm in the never selling boat!!

I think the gearbox issue will have to be thought of in relation to the wider plans I have for the car. Getting a box that can cope with the standard torque will be little use once you turn the wick up a fair few notches.
 
PhilRV6":31dyyql2 said:
I picked my car up of Motech on Saturday. All the bearings in the gearbox have been replaced and things are now a lot quiter! I also got a new clutch and slave cylinder fitted. Worthwhile becuase on closer inspection the clutch cover was cracked. Looks like someone had given number 202 a good thrashing at some point before i got hold of it.

Lucklily the noisy bearing on 3rd/4th had not seized completely and there was no damage to the casing.

Big thanks to Motech for doing the job.

Good to hear of the happy outcome Phil :approve:

Sure you don't want straight cut gears? ;) :)
 
taipan":39d781cc said:
Good to hear of the happy outcome Phil :approve:

Sure you don't want straight cut gears? ;) :)

Refurb was never going to be the ideal solution but I don't think I could justify the extra cost of anything else to the mrs! Would be nice but im not going to be going for any mods for more power so im just going to stick with the current box. Hopefully it'll last if treated with respect, although given the PK6's track record who knows?

Just glad to get the car back in full working order so I can enjoy the rest of the summer (if we ever get one!)

Good luck getting yours sorted mate
 
PhilRV6":1ssdl63x said:
taipan":1ssdl63x said:
Good to hear of the happy outcome Phil :approve:

Sure you don't want straight cut gears? ;) :)

Refurb was never going to be the ideal solution but I don't think I could justify the extra cost of anything else to the mrs! Would be nice but im not going to be going for any mods for more power so im just going to stick with the current box. Hopefully it'll last if treated with respect, although given the PK6's track record who knows?

Just glad to get the car back in full working order so I can enjoy the rest of the summer (if we ever get one!)

Good luck getting yours sorted mate

I think even if I wasn't going for power mods in the future I'd want to explore alternatives to the oem box. Pretty shocked at to how unreliable they have proven to be with no official response from Renault, I mean they're hardly transfering world changing levels of torque!!

Glad yours is done though pal and here's hoping it remains sorted for many more miles :)
 
I would say from my own recall that most peoples gearboxes have been reliable, a few may have been genuine parts & material failures but I would stick my neck out and say that the majority of issues will be caused by 'spirited' use and driving. The rear tyres are huge and with the weight in the rear the traction is very high and so with a few lauches it wouldn't be surprising if weaknesses were exposed - the main one being the clutch and probably for design reasons ... It would be quite reasonable to expect a bespkoke gearbox to be able to withstand a fair amount of hammer but clearly we have what is essentially a productionised development car, which we all appreciate; which has utilised some OEM components from other model ranges and so is probably not fit for continued abuse (not the right word but you get the picture) ...

All in all I think (and this is my opinion) the package is good and a reconditioned/rebuilt gearbox 'should' be a safe bet to establish a 'known' point for continued and ongoing ownership of the car where you know what the history is, this coupled with considerate moderate driving.

Brett has some excellent knowledge and 'blue sky' ideas but as other owners have indicated in past threads, the costs v results do not always stack up. It is really a quesiton of taking a step back and looking at what the fundamental requirements are and going from there. If you need an uprated gearbox then take the journey but there is no guarantee of reliability and trouble-free motoring though the project would be very interesting I am sure.

Martin
 
k1ano":xlccwko5 said:
I would say from my own recall that most peoples gearboxes have been reliable, a few may have been genuine parts & material failures but I would stick my neck out and say that the majority of issues will be caused by 'spirited' use and driving. The rear tyres are huge and with the weight in the rear the traction is very high and so with a few lauches it wouldn't be surprising if weaknesses were exposed - the main one being the clutch and probably for design reasons ... It would be quite reasonable to expect a bespkoke gearbox to be able to withstand a fair amount of hammer but clearly we have what is essentially a productionised development car, which we all appreciate; which has utilised some OEM components from other model ranges and so is probably not fit for continued abuse (not the right word but you get the picture) ...

All in all I think (and this is my opinion) the package is good and a reconditioned/rebuilt gearbox 'should' be a safe bet to establish a 'known' point for continued and ongoing ownership of the car where you know what the history is, this coupled with considerate moderate driving.

Brett has some excellent knowledge and 'blue sky' ideas but as other owners have indicated in past threads, the costs v results do not always stack up. It is really a quesiton of taking a step back and looking at what the fundamental requirements are and going from there. If you need an uprated gearbox then take the journey but there is no guarantee of reliability and trouble-free motoring though the project would be very interesting I am sure.

Martin

Wise words as ever Martin. Andy and Tony at Motech seem like a good bunch of guys so like you say, im thinking that the rebuild was a safe and cost effective approach as long as the car is driven with respect. Fingers crossed!
 
I hear what you're saying Martin but there are a fair few phase 1 and a couple of phase 2's out there which have/have had gearbox woes. These can't all be down to spirited driving/launches can they? And even if they are I would bet that there are other cars out there that have been subject to similar, if not worse (bearing in mind the interesting handlign characteristics of the vee), treatment and their gearboxes just shrug it off. I'm not having a whinge here, as my gearbox sh1tting it's third gear synchro has just forced me to sort something I haven't been happy with for a while anyway, it's just I think Renault have dropped the ball with this one.

Gearbox 'solutions' seem to range from rebuilding to oem spec all the way through to Sadev replacement. I think I'll get to the drawing board and see what replacement box suits best and then consider whether there would be any benefit to fitting straight cut gears in that box. I think the answer would be 'no' due to noise and expense but 'yes' due to performance gains and potential longevity.
 
Just to throw a spanner in the works Jon, when a box is fitted with SCCR gearsets, the longevity of the teeth on the gears is actually reduced. This is because they are not as wide as on helical gearsets (more load on to a smaller area) and the way they mesh together under load means they wear quicker, hence the loud noise. Like I said a few posts back, there's alot more to it than just fitting different cogs lol However, I do reckon the bearings on a PK6 would fail before the wear of gears start to show any problems
 
I think i'll investigate transplant boxes and shelve the sccr plans for now!! Lol

Whatever happens I'm defo junking the PK6!!
 
Volvo M66 gearbox looks like a good starting point. Also heard good things about the Focus ST box. Both are available for under £300.

Basic question 57: from some of the listings I've seen on eBay its just the boxes and internals that are being sold. What else is required, I'm assuming a gearlever as a minimum!! :)
 
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