clio to laguna TB conversion

[gigaz]

hi everybody!
been reading the forum, and modified my Clio with the gathered knowledge.
now, there is one mod I can't seem to accomplish, the 37mm Laguna TB mod.

I got one with matched hmanifold already opened up to 37mm.
when I swap the TB the engine gets lean everywhere (on the narrowband lambda meter).
I then swapped the injector as well, I get the same behaviour, except for the extra power.

so I'm a bit in the dark here and wanted to ask the Energy Gurus how is the TB mod properly done.


car:
clio 1.4 RT ph3 december 1997
main engine mods:
ph1 head, d7f roller followers, ported intake manifold.
(I can map the ecu as I wish)

 

[gigaz]

another development:

I've been remapping it, and it runs almost normal now, I'll try to get a dyno done to check on the results.

the VE map needs to be a LOT higher than before, but changing from a ph3 to a ph1 head should change just that. now I need a cam to take the whole power curve up in the rev band, like 1000rpm higher.

 

[gigaz]

made a 250km journey with it yesterday, this is not a car, its a couch on wheels!!

anyway the engine still doesn't run properly, it hesitates a lot when accelerating.
any ideas?

 

[BENZO 19 16V]

Poss A Cut Or Cracked Air Pipe, Spray Sum Wd40 Round On Inlet And Air Pipes And See

 

[gigaz]

thank you for the tip, already tried it, but there is no change..
I will nonetheless replace all the pipes, lets see if that sorts it, I rerouted some, probably not that properly.

 

[Chris H]

the AIT on the laguna tb may be dodgy

 

[hooverphonique]

the AIT on the laguna tb may be dodgy

AIT = Air Intake Temperature sensor?

 

[gigaz]

haven't thought about that one.. thanks
I'm going to take it out and test it on the bench as soon as we get some sunshine around here.

 

[markeyturbo]

dont trust a narrowband lamba... they make educated guesses rather than an actual AFR reading.

if you are getting more air into the engine, have you considered that all that extra air will also need to exit... eg. manifold and system...

you gotta do the full package to get good results!

 

[gigaz]

on the contrary, narrowbands are pretty accurate, but you only get a lean/rich indicator, and mine gets lean while accelerating at full throttle. :?
how lean? I don't know.

I cured some of the problems by plugging the evap valve, it should be some leak thru there. I'll repair it later.

at least its driveable enough to do burnouts

I never saw a project with the laguna TB mod, I wonder if it really exists..

 

[Chris H]

people do it here and never bother doing anything else (aside from matching the body to the manifold) and they drive fine.

 

[gigaz]

just one more question: should I just swap the TB or the complete set, TB+injector?

 

[Chris H]

full lot

 

[kj16v]

Hi, slightly off-topic but what do you use to map your ECU?

 

[gigaz]

full lot

thanks, will try to get it running decently on the 1.4 stuff then swap.

Hi, slightly off-topic but what do you use to map your ECU?

started with Winhex, pencil and paper
maps are 13*9 start after a few bytes and the advance is directly readable in degrees.

it is a painstakingly slow process of trial and error without proper tools like a rolling road with brake capability, a wideband lambda and a realtime eprom emulator.
with those you can fully remap a car in a few hours

first thing I did was to take out that dreadful flat spot around 2000rpm, I believe its there to improve emissions and fuel consumption while cruising.

in my Dyno sheet (here) you can see a bump exactly at 4100RPM, well guess where does the ecu jump from one value to the next?

 

[kj16v]

Hi I just happened upon your extra-late reply!

I really want to learn how to read and modify ECU EPROMS. Please go into more detail!

How exactly did you go about it: Did you remove the eprom, read the hex files off it and just trawl through it until you found what looked like fuel and ign maps?

 

[gigaz]

yap, exactly as you said

a few months later I got confirmation on a Czech website. (google language tools rule!)

BTW here are the locations for the 1.8 16v clio:

RPM Limit : 4313 Hex (16 bit value)
Injection Map(Relative) : 407C Hex 8bit 13x9 RPM vs MAP
Ignition Map : 4007 Hex 8bit 13x9 RPM vs MAP

there are a few good books on the subject in the UK ebay. haven't bought them yet, cashflow goes to the car

PS: strong microelectronics background is heavily advised.

 

[gigaz]

update: adjusting the TPS position got me rid of the lack of power and some of the hesitation.
then swapped to the Laguna TB and adjusted so that I got a good idle and wouldn't bog down as soon as I blipped the throttle.
went for a drive and.. I have LESS power than with the 1.4 injector

man this sytem confuses me! :cry:

 

[gigaz]

I really can't understand the beast, it seems to learn by itself, it gets better just by driving it a few Kms...

if I unplug the battery for a few minutes, it resets and gets funny for a while, then gets better.

I have tremendous torque down low, and smells like gasoline, but after 4000RPM there is no life.

 

[gigaz]

I got one with matched manifold already opened up to 37mm.

THAT was the main problem, I believe the manifold was too widened and that changed the vacuum signal.
after swapping for the stock ph3 one everything runs fine on the stock injector and TB.

btw the rebuild paid off, I get 4.7l/100 driving like a old lady and 6l/100 letting it rip.

I'm planning on doing a dyno soon, just to make sure my buttdyno is acurate.