Engine management.

[Brett]

Right, after the brilliant Dieppe trip and seeing the stunning Megane Trophy in the flesh I'm now planning on taking my vee off the road for a couple of months over the winter. Mainly for the cambelt/tensioner/water pump etc but plans are down to have a set of bespoke manifolds with sport cat's made up and a one off throttle body system. I've considered fitting the PH2 inlet system for a while now but from what ive heard its alot of work for not a great gain. The set up I'm planning will consist of 2 plenumns (similar to a trophy) but I will post up design piccies soon.
My question is concerning the management system. I don't want the cars dash and normal functions to be effected by this little conversion so I'm thinking of looking at the piggyback systems. Namly the Dasteck system which I keep hearing about. What are peoples veiws on it concerning price and ease of installation?

Any help would be great.

Thanks

 

[maxi.man]

have you given up on the turbo 2 hillclimb slag ???

 

[Brett]

have you given up on the turbo 2 hillclimb slag ???

Nooooo!!! Just want to get the Vee how I want it by next summer. Ive been thinking of building a spaceframe car to replicate a Super production Turbo 2. The way things look competition wise, super lightweight is the way forward. 300bhp in a mid engined 500kg car would be insane. 600bhp per ton with grip too suit. :wink: A chassis like the one on this car would be perfect. http://www.lynxae.co.uk/Developments-1.htm (my mini is the green one at the bottom)

 

[v6Max]

You'll need to go for separate mgmt for the engine and leave the existing in place to keep things like lighting, dash etc.

Look at something like Megasquirt/Emerald/KMS and if you've got lots of money to burn MoTeC or Pectel - I'm really not convinced you'll get the job done with the existing ECU and a piggy back...

Just one note of warning - if you get hold of a Trophy manifold they do not bolt directly on to the existing heads - the attachment points are in different places, the ports are different profiles, you'll need to have a new cam cover made up because the plenum stops you getting to the existing oil filling point, you're also be looking at a new fuel rail...I know this from experience...

 

[Brett]

You'll need to go for separate mgmt for the engine and leave the existing in place to keep things like lighting, dash etc.

Look at something like Megasquirt/Emerald/KMS and if you've got lots of money to burn MoTeC or Pectel - I'm really not convinced you'll get the job done with the existing ECU and a piggy back...

Just one note of warning - if you get hold of a Trophy manifold they do not bolt directly on to the existing heads - the attachment points are in different places, the ports are different profiles, you'll need to have a new cam cover made up because the plenum stops you getting to the existing oil filling point, you're also be looking at a new fuel rail...I know this from experience...

Yeah, I was originally considering an Emerald ECU but have heard of this Dasteck. Just wondered if it was any good. I personally would bother with a Motec as it does exactly the same job as other much cheaper ECU's.

As for the inlet manifold, it'll be my own design fella. Would love the Trophy setup but will have to modify all the engine cover which I don't want to do. Instead im going to use 3 ITB's either side of the motor.

 

[v6Max]

Interesting... Do you have an idea of which ITBs you're going to use? I suspect it will be a challenge to design an ITB system that will sit under the existing covers because although you can keep the runners short ultimately the need to provide a plenum will be what will send you through the covers. Besides - if you have ITBs you may want to show them off anyway!

The Dastek is a piggy back ECU that in effect modifies the existing ECUs behaviour as opposed to replacing it completely - now whether it's technically possible to use it to control a 6 TB setup I'm not sure but I'd be definitely looking at going for something like the Emerald because a "proper" ECU will simply give you much more control and capability for handling any further modifcations that you may consider.

The VFM question around MoTeC and Pectel is allways going to be a difficult subject - if you're going FI, need extensive data logging, a proven high end race "CV", close integration with other car systems then they will deliver but whether they are an absolute requirement at our end of the market is a different matter and comes down to personal choice.

Certainly I reckon you'd be safe looking at Emerald (plus you'd have the potential to get Dave Walker to map it). If you're handy with a soldering iron and you want to keep costs down look at Megasquirt.

It's worth talking to MikeT, TRW1, TimV6 etc they've all ended up or begun with a separate ECU (MoTeC M800) dedicated to managing the engine with the existing OEM system(s) in place to handle the less interesting things like lighting, alarm, electric windows etc.

 

[Brett]

Interesting... Do you have an idea of which ITBs you're going to use? I suspect it will be a challenge to design an ITB system that will sit under the existing covers because although you can keep the runners short ultimately the need to provide a plenum will be what will send you through the covers. Besides - if you have ITBs you may want to show them off anyway!

Ive been looking at the ATPower ITB's as they are really compact. With out having an engine in front of me its hard to tell what and what I can't do. Ive got a few ideas but they don't include really short distances from trumpet inlet to port face. Maybe just a little shorter than a Ph1 inlet to keep the low down torque up.

 

[Peter255]

The new Datek is a good unit. Quite capable and very good value. Its also easy and quick to fit. Speak to Scotty for more info. Its def worth considering if your using the stock loom and a similar engine setup overall. Don't confuse the current setup to older units that were less capable. And also invest in a good mapper (obviously).

As you may have read i'm also investigating what can be gained while retaining a standard block.

From my experience management alone does not gain much. The mk2 plenum just provides better flow at high revs. Decatted exhaust again does not provide major gains. Its looking like cams and headwork are the key to getting significant gains. However i am getting some inlet plenum work done over the next few months and will post up the results of that. Beyond that is headwork, cams, stroker kit etc which is big money (next year! :badgrin: ). I also want to keep the covers on. No need to shout anymore than the car already does! :wink:

Cheers
Peter

 

[406coupe]

I've just introduced myself as new member, my question shuold be here I think..
I'm fitting a 230bhp motor into my Peugeot 406 coupe 3.0 V6, but vannot get the ECU sorted. Megasquirt think the engine and ECU will work independantly from the car and original ECU, but they need to know, is the 230 motor camshafts PWM control or ON/OFF at 'x' Revs per min?
I can get the motor in, and it will have a better induction (BMC Cold Air kit) and exhaust, its a Powerflow twin exit system with single cat, soon to be a decat pipe!
I'm hoping to see about 260bhp when its finished, so any help much needed! Thanks, Mike

 

[Brett]

I've just introduced myself as new member, my question shuold be here I think..
I'm fitting a 230bhp motor into my Peugeot 406 coupe 3.0 V6, but vannot get the ECU sorted. Megasquirt think the engine and ECU will work independantly from the car and original ECU, but they need to know, is the 230 motor camshafts PWM control or ON/OFF at 'x' Revs per min?
I can get the motor in, and it will have a better induction (BMC Cold Air kit) and exhaust, its a Powerflow twin exit system with single cat, soon to be a decat pipe!
I'm hoping to see about 260bhp when its finished, so any help much needed! Thanks, Mike

Ok, first off.....260bhp.......it won't make that with just an induction kit and decat sorry to say. To get that sort of figure you will at least need a Clio v6 ph2 inlet plenumn. Im soon to be fitting equal length manifolds, full decat and a Trophy inlet manifold (designed specificly for racing by Renault). Im hoping for somewhere near 270bhp when im done but that might even be hard to reach. My Ph1 currently has a BMC fitted aswell as a Quick Silver exhaust and it certainly doesnt make 260.

As for as the VVC is concerned, I might be wrong but i think its on and off at a particular amount of revs. Ive drove my car with the engine covers off a few times now and it certainly sounded on and off. Was around 4500rpm on mine if i remember correctly.

 

[Jamesv6]

Hello Mike.

Your 230bhp motor is likely to be about 212bhp in reality. I'm in no way techy minded (don't own a spanner of any sort) only picking up on what I read on the forums, I think what you have planned may get you to 230bhp.
In saying that perhaps yours is different to the Renault engine in some way? Would be interested to see your mapping results prior to these upgrades.

Please keep us informed of your progress.

 

[406coupe]

I'm also opening up the inlet manifold and fitting the Skunk2 Mustang V8 throttle body, plus will be having it remapped and set up live, with before and after printouts, so hoping for a good result!
Manchester Superchips quote 243 bhp just for their remap, so I want at least 250 bhp, which I've been told is very likely: Just wish I could dyno the engine now to get the real flywheel bhp so I know the true start figure!

 

[Brett]

I'm also opening up the inlet manifold and fitting the Skunk2 Mustang V8 throttle body, plus will be having it remapped and set up live, with before and after printouts, so hoping for a good result!
Manchester Superchips quote 243 bhp just for their remap, so I want at least 250 bhp, which I've been told is very likely: Just wish I could dyno the engine now to get the real flywheel bhp so I know the true start figure!

Is there a special tool for opening out plastic inlet manifolds then?? lol Joking aside and to put things into perspective, DDouble on here has a ph1 motor with the much better Ph2 inlet and many other things ontop including the Dastec engine management and its running just over a genuine 250bhp. Honestly fella, if it was just a case of a small ammount of inlet work and a larger throttle body to get 250+bhp we'd all probably be doing it. Trophy engines for instance are about 280bhp with a much MUCH better designed inlet and many trick modifications to the heads etc.

 

[406coupe]

Yep, I do agree with both of you, the figures quoted by tuning firms can be a bit optimistic! The Quicksilver exhaust and manifolds are supposed to give 16 bhp, but cost about £1200. I'm hoping that by having a full length freeflow exhaust, with decat, and bigger induction setup, I can get this gain. Then, as I said, Mcr S/Chips quote 13bhp for a remap, more if you add the dastek piggyback ECU to make the best use of the improved flowrate, another £600.
LOT of money for a few bhp's though!
How did Renault get to 255 bhp on the ph2? Camshafts and remap, what else? Interestingly, Shrick do performance camshafts for about £1600, listing the same ones for both engines. I'm also looking at Yozzasport throttle bodies, just dreaming/ seeing what can be done (they won't fit under the 406 bonnet anyway!)
Most of the tuning firms say that the main problem tuning the engine is the tiny exhaust full of cats and pre cats, and lack of clean, cold air, so shoving it in the front should help. Then theres the 7th and 8th injector mods, nitrous, or a supercharger......
This motor should be giving 270 bhp as standard, never mind tuning them up!
Still need to know the camshaft operation first, then I can get prices and start saving...

 

[Duncan]

dont worry about numbers & dont add gains together (ie exhaust 12bhp + remap 13bhp = 25bhp, it doesnt work like that) as you will only get disapointed.

Driveability is the most important thing, not max power.

 

[v6Max]

Mk2 has vastly improved induction system but it's also subject to the same optimism as the Mk1 in terms of quoted power output.

The power output is quoted at the fly and normally obtained on an engine dyno where the engine is not subject to the packaging constraints of being in the "wrong end" of the car or needing to drive sub-systems like the PAS pump and alternator both of which will cause considerable parasitic loss.

IIRC Scott at SG know the cam switching logic on these engines by the way.

Last thing worth mentioning is that the Trophy spec engines "only" got 280bhp and that's "race spec" i.e. regular refreshes, running much better induction & exhaust and running Magnetti Marelli management (not cheap).

 

[406coupe]

So its an ON/OFF setup then! First of many problems sorted, but how do I contact Scott at SG?
I agree that projected/claimed bhp gains cannot just be added together, pity really! I just feel that the power output of this brilliant engine can be vastly improved, carrying out sensible mods that work together to give bhp and torque gains.
The early V6 engine is very torquey, will drive at 30 in 5th gear and accelerate to about 150 without changing down, and as its non vvt, the power comes in with a bang at about 4k and then its pulls like a train!
Have you seen the Stealth 406 coupe, now belongs to peter on 406 coupe club. It is the same motor as mine, the first 194bhp version. After a 3.1 rebore, a supercharger, 7th and 8th injectors and more, now produces 360bhp, oh and a 100bhp Nitrous kit, just for those times when 360 isn't enough....
Although I keep quoting bhp, I am equally interested in boosting the torque, as I am looking to get the best mid range performance and driveability, not really bothered about increasing the top speed (much!)

 

[Brett]

7th and 8th injectors are a bit heath robinson, bit like the old 5th injector setup used by Turbotechnics way back in the 80's. 360bhp sounds about right with a blower on board though. You should check out MikeT's little project. Its running around 600bhp with the must have SADEV sequential gearbox. Now thats what I call pretty mental in a Clio.

 

[Jamesv6]

but how do I contact Scott at SG?

 

[406coupe]

Hi guys, thanks for all the input so far!
I've now got to find these:
"So now all we need to know is the ignition setup, COP or coil packs and the crank signal, is it a 60-2 crank or does it have a cas too?"
I thought they would be telling me! Anyone know what the hell he is talking about? I know it has 6 pencil coils, same as the last Pug V6 (Plus I've got the engine in my workshop) but not sure about the rest