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DYNO RUN STD CAR
- Thread starter Spike
- Start date
To be fair, searching for a set figure (bhp or lb/ft) is an utterly pointless and non enjoyable process. Been there, done that, got the T shirt and then the stupidly high reciepts for the parts that get you there. For developing an engine, a base datum of where you've started is always helpfull especially if your finely tuning or honing a motor. I spoke to Spike the other week about his "project" and his words to me were "I don't care what it make's so long as it pulls like a train". Thats the correct attitude for tuning/developing a fast road car, not headline figures to develop a dyno queen that you can brag about down the pub.
I built one a few years back as I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. It was only when I sat back and realised that it was constantly off the road while everyone was enjoying theirs that I realised I was being a prat! At the end of the day, build a motor/'box/car to a given spec map it and set it up correctly and go and enjoy it. The most impressive thing I've heard is that Tims car did 150 odd mph down Bruntingthorpe. That means the thing was going like shit off a shovel regardless if it had 190 bhp or 450.
I built one a few years back as I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. It was only when I sat back and realised that it was constantly off the road while everyone was enjoying theirs that I realised I was being a prat! At the end of the day, build a motor/'box/car to a given spec map it and set it up correctly and go and enjoy it. The most impressive thing I've heard is that Tims car did 150 odd mph down Bruntingthorpe. That means the thing was going like shit off a shovel regardless if it had 190 bhp or 450.
very true brett thats why you need a standard car on the same roller as all the modified cars so we can once and for all have a comprehensive list of cars with listed mods with accurate comparative figures its the difference between them which matters this will be good for all past present and future members and it stops all the bullshit i am happy to add my self to the list [smilie=yay.gif]
I think your shoot out is a good idea Ray.
Mine is no stranger to being on various rollers, and as I recall none of the results were lower than 240 before mods. Oddly though Peter's was, so the 240 average is questionable too. I happily excepted it fell short of Renaults 255. After mods figures I was very sceptical of indeed!
As Brett has just said regards pulling, I was pleased mine was much faster, in fact it was simply too fast for my liking, added to that, it was far too loud. It really had to go back to standard.
If you arrange a shoot out I'm sure some members might be interested in roller figures, should make a nice wee meet.
Mine is no stranger to being on various rollers, and as I recall none of the results were lower than 240 before mods. Oddly though Peter's was, so the 240 average is questionable too. I happily excepted it fell short of Renaults 255. After mods figures I was very sceptical of indeed!
As Brett has just said regards pulling, I was pleased mine was much faster, in fact it was simply too fast for my liking, added to that, it was far too loud. It really had to go back to standard.
If you arrange a shoot out I'm sure some members might be interested in roller figures, should make a nice wee meet.
Very much hope mine will be running before too long.......
As I understand it Spike's 207 is at the wheels which depending on your flywheel calculations puts it approximately where most Mk2s are at about 240ish.
I'll put mine on a couple of different dynos when done out of curiousity but as mentioned those numbers aren't important, it's how it stacks up in the real world by which I mean 0-60, 0-100, 100-0, 1/4 mile and laptimes. Even these comparisons are only valid if you put the same driver in all cars on the same day....etc. etc.
As I understand it Spike's 207 is at the wheels which depending on your flywheel calculations puts it approximately where most Mk2s are at about 240ish.
I'll put mine on a couple of different dynos when done out of curiousity but as mentioned those numbers aren't important, it's how it stacks up in the real world by which I mean 0-60, 0-100, 100-0, 1/4 mile and laptimes. Even these comparisons are only valid if you put the same driver in all cars on the same day....etc. etc.
Ideally you want to know what it read ATW to see what calcualtion they have used.
It's possible it was brilliant, made 230 ATW and he's under estimated transmission losses and it may be even higher at the flywheel.......similarly it could be the other way.
This is why Spike says he's wary of flywheel figures.........
Unless you remove the engine from the car and then take the gearbox off and bolt it directly to an engine dyno there is always room for interpretation.
If I was starting from scratch with £4000 I think I'd go first for KW suspension then change the seats to something much lighter (biggest single weight saver) and probably decent brakes, also look at where else I could save weight. You'd notice more improved performance from that.
It's possible it was brilliant, made 230 ATW and he's under estimated transmission losses and it may be even higher at the flywheel.......similarly it could be the other way.
This is why Spike says he's wary of flywheel figures.........
Unless you remove the engine from the car and then take the gearbox off and bolt it directly to an engine dyno there is always room for interpretation.
If I was starting from scratch with £4000 I think I'd go first for KW suspension then change the seats to something much lighter (biggest single weight saver) and probably decent brakes, also look at where else I could save weight. You'd notice more improved performance from that.
My take on this is that I am wary of ANY 'rolling road' figures.
Shoot-outs may sound a bit 'rice boy' but actually are probably the best way of comparing one car against another on the same day. Even then you just have to read some of these 'shoot out' articles to see 'expected' v 'actual' figures and the various owner and operator comments about this and that to see that you ofen can't compare apples with apples due to the wide variations in things done to each car. I tend to always be more interested in what the alleged 'control' or standard car produces relative to the others ...
In the past I have used the same rolling road on a personal basis for incremental tuning i.e. base-line, then comparing against modifications done. This is purely for my own interest and not for bragging rights as it is all so subjective. Basically I don't give a crap about HP/BHP/PS figures at all ... I suppose that is because I am not interested in making my car go faster or spending shed-loads of cash on it to do so ... If I was however, I WOULD want to know before and after figures and justify the money spent and benefits of each modification - to a large extend I would also want to rely and trust someone who knew what they were doing and done most of that before and had a good reputation ...
For me if the car runs fine and goes well that is a good basic measure for me ...
This thread is interesting though ...
Martin
Shoot-outs may sound a bit 'rice boy' but actually are probably the best way of comparing one car against another on the same day. Even then you just have to read some of these 'shoot out' articles to see 'expected' v 'actual' figures and the various owner and operator comments about this and that to see that you ofen can't compare apples with apples due to the wide variations in things done to each car. I tend to always be more interested in what the alleged 'control' or standard car produces relative to the others ...
In the past I have used the same rolling road on a personal basis for incremental tuning i.e. base-line, then comparing against modifications done. This is purely for my own interest and not for bragging rights as it is all so subjective. Basically I don't give a crap about HP/BHP/PS figures at all ... I suppose that is because I am not interested in making my car go faster or spending shed-loads of cash on it to do so ... If I was however, I WOULD want to know before and after figures and justify the money spent and benefits of each modification - to a large extend I would also want to rely and trust someone who knew what they were doing and done most of that before and had a good reputation ...
For me if the car runs fine and goes well that is a good basic measure for me ...
This thread is interesting though ...
Martin
It's always bhp people look at but I'd rather have more Torque.
Tim's 240ft/lbs is impressive against what standard cars really make and is why it's so 'quick'
Generally, bhp will improve your top speed and torque will improve your acceleration.
When I had a 50bhp nitrous shot my peak torque was 332ft/lbs@3200rpm. [smilie=icon_eek.gif]
Graph shows figs at the wheels.
Tim's 240ft/lbs is impressive against what standard cars really make and is why it's so 'quick'
Generally, bhp will improve your top speed and torque will improve your acceleration.
When I had a 50bhp nitrous shot my peak torque was 332ft/lbs@3200rpm. [smilie=icon_eek.gif]
Graph shows figs at the wheels.
timv6":6ksvx0s0 said:
I realise that Tim, though your point about throwing a top notch mappable ecu at a totally standard car is an interesting one.
If someone's plans and budget are for significant n/a engine mods then you'll need one anyway and you'd be best to start with one early in the project.
I don't think either of us started off intending to spend what we have.......it's something that has crept up on me as things have gone along. I think Martin mentioned how spending chunks here and there over the years makes it seem not so bad......then you sit down and count up the receipts.......!! [smilie=icon_eek.gif]
If I had a blank sheet and the budget all in one go I would definitely have done things differently and would have much better value for my money with an M3 lump or something similar in there as you say.
At least when we're done we can say it's still a Renault!
Let's hope maybe this is the summer when we get all these cars together at once.
Tim
