Alternative ECUs

[taipan]

So thinking about the end game and whatever is decided it sure as hell isn't going to talk to the standard ECU. What are the aftermarket ECU options then?

I've heard of very few (Motec M600 or an offering from Emerald) and know even less about ECUs than I do about mechanicals. I do know it's a pretty expensive step though. So what's involved? Want to keep the car's dash controls really but it's been mentioned that that may be a headache.

Any/all opinions welcomed. Including the OEM naysayers...

 

[Kett]

Speak to TDF...

; )

 

[Alpineandy]

The Alpine GTA guys have a few on stand alone ECUs.
IIRC they mainly use 'Adaptronic', 'Canems' and emerald.

you could ask facebook.com/jlengineeringuk.
or RATS
who can tell use you how friendly they are to use.

 

[Mulgari]

John, if you go after market i know an absolute wizard to set it up. Especially a Motec (not me by the way )

 

[taipan]

Thanks guys. Some great leads there. :approve:

TDF is just up the road from me so that makes the most sense as a starting point. In the intial learning stage at moment as from what I can glean there is quite a lot more to it than just ripping out OEM and bunging in aftermarket!!!

Speak to TDF...

; )

You bought Tim's old car right, Kett? Has the Motec M600 from memory? If so what's it like - driveabilty, starting up etc etc? And does it allow you to keep the standard dash/instrument functionality?

 

[Kett]

Speak to TDF...

; )

You bought Tim's old car right, Kett? Has the Motec M600 from memory? If so what's it like - driveabilty, starting up etc etc? And does it allow you to keep the standard dash/instrument functionality?

Tim was very vociferous about 'claims of expertise' in this field.

The TDF map is very good, but there remains 'an acceptable level' of over-fueling. Tim was advised by TDF that additional sensors (at the cat?) would be necessary to tame this... but hey-ho!

Yes, all the original Renault instrumentation works - the MoTeC simply adds an additional LCD gauge (with multiple instrument readings).
VE02VEE will be at SGM's come the spring and you're welcome to check it out then.

Keep the faith Jon - you'll have a very special Vee on completion. I was lazy and let someone else go through the 'pulling out hair' development process...

 

[Brett]

Thanks guys. Some great leads there. :approve:

TDF is just up the road from me so that makes the most sense as a starting point. In the intial learning stage at moment as from what I can glean there is quite a lot more to it than just ripping out OEM and bunging in aftermarket!!!

Speak to TDF...

; )

You bought Tim's old car right, Kett? Has the Motec M600 from memory? If so what's it like - driveabilty, starting up etc etc? And does it allow you to keep the standard dash/instrument functionality?

Doesn't matter what ecu you go for. Driveability, cold start, fuel consumption etc etc is all down to how good the person mapping it is. Don't waste your money on Motec. Yes it's pretty much as good as it gets and they do extremely clever add on equipment but its a clio v6! its not a 900hp Porsche Hill climb car with suspension telemetry that varies power from wheel to wheel or has multiple injectors per cylinder which activates depending what fuel you use or the altitude it's being driven at. Keep it bloody basic and functional!

The question you want to ask yourself regardless of part being fitted is what do you want it to do and what you want from it. For you I'm guessing:-

-Can it run a 6 cylinder engine
-Can it be used with ITB's operated by either cable or fly by wire
-Can it operate a basic variable valve control system
-Can it use the original Renault flywheel/crank sensor or will you need a basic trigger wheel setup
-Is it generally a reliable unit
-Is there a lot of support following the ecu regarding installation, tuning/mapping, fault finding and upgrades.


Now line up all the different stand alone ecu's next to those questions and you won't go far wrong. You can also make your own conclusion as to why its worth spending a hell of a lot more money on something that performs and functions exactly the same as something a quarter the price.
In my opinion, you need to find a company who's word you can trust and stick with them. Going from one place to another will end in tears. Make a plan that they are happy to carry out and dont take advise anywhere else but there. If you do you will only go around in circles as the way one brilliant tuner/mapper/engine builder does things successfully is probably a completly different way another brilliant one does it. Put it this way. If you put Jamie Oliver and Gorden Ramsey in the same kitchen and told them to make a cheesecake using half of ones recipe and half of the other you'd be left with a bowlful of trifle no poor sod would enjoy. :approve:

 

[rustedandrotten]

Brett,

never realised that you string so much common sense into one diatribe!! Very succinctly put, particularly the analogies relating to Gordon Ramsay and Jamie Oliver except you left out the bloodshed and trauma due to the complete lack of normal communication! :bow: :rofl:
If this is going ITB route, my primary source of info would come from the manufacturers as to which units have the best communication performance and parameters with their throttle bodies for optimum performance, then find out who is the best whizz kid at mapping fine tuning as you will probably get a baseline map that wont be a million miles off directly from the manufacturer, all about responsive communication and a driveable end result!

Taipan

good luck and make sure you back up the mapping just in case!! :approve:

 

[taipan]

Yes, all the original Renault instrumentation works - the MoTeC simply adds an additional LCD gauge (with multiple instrument readings).

Ah good to know. I don't really want to be faffing about with stack dashes etc to be honest! I want the swap to have as little impact (visually) as possible.

What's the driveability of yours like? In the short term a standalone will (hopefully) solve my AFR/misfire issues, though in the long term it'll be a must for the ITB set-up.

Doesn't matter what ecu you go for. Driveability, cold start, fuel consumption etc etc is all down to how good the person mapping it is. Don't waste your money on Motec. Yes it's pretty much as good as it gets and they do extremely clever add on equipment but its a clio v6! its not a 900hp Porsche Hill climb car with suspension telemetry that varies power from wheel to wheel or has multiple injectors per cylinder which activates depending what fuel you use or the altitude it's being driven at. Keep it bloody basic and functional!

The question you want to ask yourself regardless of part being fitted is what do you want it to do and what you want from it. For you I'm guessing:-

-Can it run a 6 cylinder engine
-Can it be used with ITB's operated by either cable or fly by wire
-Can it operate a basic variable valve control system
-Can it use the original Renault flywheel/crank sensor or will you need a basic trigger wheel setup
-Is it generally a reliable unit
-Is there a lot of support following the ecu regarding installation, tuning/mapping, fault finding and upgrades.


Now line up all the different stand alone ecu's next to those questions and you won't go far wrong. You can also make your own conclusion as to why its worth spending a hell of a lot more money on something that performs and functions exactly the same as something a quarter the price.
In my opinion, you need to find a company who's word you can trust and stick with them. Going from one place to another will end in tears. Make a plan that they are happy to carry out and dont take advise anywhere else but there. If you do you will only go around in circles as the way one brilliant tuner/mapper/engine builder does things successfully is probably a completly different way another brilliant one does it. Put it this way. If you put Jamie Oliver and Gorden Ramsey in the same kitchen and told them to make a cheesecake using half of ones recipe and half of the other you'd be left with a bowlful of trifle no poor sod would enjoy. :approve:

Great stuff as usual Brett. :approve:

I agree that the Motec will be OTT for my needs really. I notice that TDF developed their own ECU in conjunction with RS Tuning - imaginatively named the RS-Force EC1!!

Whilst I totally agree about paying for the sake of paying I also want to draw the line at buying tatt. Once the car is back (hopefully next month or so) I'll have a chat with TDF purely because they're very local to me. Need to do a bit of swotting up though really as I want to at least understand what my basic requirments are!!

 

[taipan]

Keep the faith Jon - you'll have a very special Vee on completion. I was lazy and let someone else go through the 'pulling out hair' development process...

Cheers Kett, sometimes I wonder why I put myself through it all. lol

 

[Alpineandy]

Just to add a bit more to the pot.
These guys do a lot of Renaults EFI and a lot of non-Renaults as well.
Scoff runs a mega powerful R5GTT
and they can run you through the whole package but they aren't round the corner.

 

[Kett]

What's the driveability of yours like?

Frantic! It's like my 255 on crystal meth!!! Very entertaining and very addictive!

It drives really well, but is an evil b*stard from launch... very twitchy/rev happy - which I attribute mostly to the lightened flywheel... all part of the fun!

: )

 

[taipan]

Just to add a bit more to the pot.
These guys do a lot of Renaults EFI and a lot of non-Renaults as well.
Scoff runs a mega powerful R5GTT
and they can run you through the whole package but they aren't round the corner.

A one stop shop does really appeal. Though having the car the other side of the country again would be something I'd like to ideally avoid! Will definintely pick up the phone though. :approve:

 

[taipan]

What's the driveability of yours like?

Frantic! It's like my 255 on crystal meth!!! Very entertaining and very addictive!

It drives really well, but is an evil b*stard from launch... very twitchy/rev happy - which I attribute mostly to the lightened flywheel... all part of the fun!

: )

Sounds familiar. Light weight flywheel does take a bit of getting used to but the upsides far outweigh the down for me.

Got some good avenues to explore. Thanks to all

 

[Lankan]

Seems like your project has really begun to gather some pace now.............looking to have it on the road by spring?

 

[taipan]

It's a necessary development brought forward unfortunately. The standard ECU just can't keep up with all the extra air introduced.

To be honest I would rather have split up the ITB and ECU sides anyhow as together they'd be a fairly formidable outlay!!

Still very much at research stage though. Want to get it right first time. But yes my aim is still to have it ready in time for the Spring road trip Nas and I have planned.

 

[Mulgari]

It's a necessary development brought forward unfortunately. The standard ECU just can't keep up with all the extra air introduced.

To be honest I would rather have split up the ITB and ECU sides anyhow as together they'd be a fairly formidable outlay!!

Still very much at research stage though. Want to get it right first time. But yes my aim is still to have it ready in time for the Spring road trip Nas and I have planned.

The question we ask everyone that comes into us, is "what do you want to achieve" the OEM ECU does have scope to be adapted but to a degree. If you want to go ITB's then after market may be required, but if you are just adding exhaust manifold, cat and maybe plenum spacer then the ECU is more than capable of being mapped to accommodate and deliver the additional performance from the mods. Sometimes when tuning stock ECU's its not necessarily the ECU that becomes the problem, more the data read range from the stock sensors ie MAP, MAF etc

All depends on what bits you bolting onto the engine :race:

 

[Lankan]

It's a necessary development brought forward unfortunately. The standard ECU just can't keep up with all the extra air introduced.

To be honest I would rather have split up the ITB and ECU sides anyhow as together they'd be a fairly formidable outlay!!

Still very much at research stage though. Want to get it right first time. But yes my aim is still to have it ready in time for the Spring road trip Nas and I have planned.

Jon, that would be a serious amount of cash, which I am sure you will be hard pushed to recover, except in enjoyment and the status of having a one-off! Hats off to you though for being different. :salut:

Look forward to seeing the finished article............ :approve:

The question we ask everyone that comes into us, is "what do you want to achieve" the OEM ECU does have scope to be adapted but to a degree. If you want to go ITB's then after market may be required, but if you are just adding exhaust manifold, cat and maybe plenum spacer then the ECU is more than capable of being mapped to accommodate and deliver the additional performance from the mods. Sometimes when tuning stock ECU's its not necessarily the ECU that becomes the problem, more the data read range from the stock sensors ie MAP, MAF etc.

Ben, did you end up with a custom built exhaust manifold? For me the exhaust manifold is the only thing that I would want to change. Also heard that you have done wonders to the front end of your Vee. Would be interested in talking to you about the details, and whether you have that as an offering.

 

[taipan]

Jon, that would be a serious amount of cash, which I am sure you will be hard pushed to recover, except in enjoyment and the status of having a one-off! Hats off to you though for being different. :salut:

Look forward to seeing the finished article............ :approve:

Got to spend the pennies on something I guess. lol Definitely never going to recoup money on the car, but that's because I'm never selling rather than the mods hurting the value (though undoubtedly in years to come they will - meh, so be it). The car has never and will never be an investment to me, so why not live a little eh?

 

[taipan]

The question we ask everyone that comes into us, is "what do you want to achieve" the OEM ECU does have scope to be adapted but to a degree. If you want to go ITB's then after market may be required, but if you are just adding exhaust manifold, cat and maybe plenum spacer then the ECU is more than capable of being mapped to accommodate and deliver the additional performance from the mods. Sometimes when tuning stock ECU's its not necessarily the ECU that becomes the problem, more the data read range from the stock sensors ie MAP, MAF etc

All depends on what bits you bolting onto the engine :race:

Having had a long time to think about it, I just think the flexibility of having a standalone is something that appeals. Having had a read back through the various trials and tribulations of others, it seems there's common headaches with everyone that tried to fiddle with the OEM item; be it remap or piggybacking.

All I can say is that the car doesn't seem to like the current set-up and clearly something's a bit off, so if nothing else a standalone will provide wider parameters within which to try and fine tune things. I hoping the runnig problem will be solved or at least greatly reduced because I think the engine has power to give!