Suspension - Something other than KW?

[10]

Hi all,

Due to the values of the cars at the moment it seems there is a bias towards standard items, as opposed to the 'forum validated' combo of spike exhaust, lightweight flywheel and KWs!

My questions relate to the KW V3s I currently have on the car. I bought them on the basis that I wanted to eliminate the body roll I experienced on track and, given the rate at which engineering develops, items designed in the last 10-years would presumably have better damping than a 2000 - 2005 koni damper. Not to mention the added benefit of adjustability.

That being said, the KWs are firm and the car does handle fantastically, however at the compromise of comfort. I have a high tolerance and preference for firm riding cars but I'm not a believer in low and firm suspension being 'better' for handling, I prefer to think it's the damping capabilities of the suspension that is the differentiator. The car does feel like a touring car or how I imagine a GT3 RS might feel on the road (in terms of ride, obviously not performance), but I have been wondering, did I go a bit hardcore for a car that is a road car 99% of the time. It's goes on long road trips and get driven around country roads at speed for the most part, it might be nice to add in some element of comfort - think 'sports' rather than 'track'.

So... historically has anyone fitted something else to V6s in order to improve the handling and get more performance out of the car without going to a 'track-focussed' damper that I believe the KWs to be. Perhaps changing the spring rate is the answer?

For reference, I've probably done 7-8k miles on the KWs so this isn't a case of 'idiot fits performance suspension - turns out to be less comfortable'. Although I might not entirely contest the idiot part. The motivation for asking these queries is a friend who was advised by 'centre of gravity' to fit Koni dampers and eibach springs rather than KWs to his 986 Porsche Boxster.

Look forward to thoughts, ideas and musings of other owners.

 

[Kett]

Centre of Gravity have a good reputation.
996/986 are awash with options and I went for bog-standard Bilstein & OE springs when I renewed for my 996. Everything else seemed to be aimed at lowering/stiffening.

Luckily, here at V6 HQ there are very few options - so a lot less to ponder.

(If BG are ignored) - the choice seems to be:
a) Konis refurbished with SGM outsourced springs
b) KW v3 coilovers
c) RSC coilovers

I’ve got OE Koni on the Ph2 and KWv3 on the Ph1. I think these options work well.

A good few years ago when visiting OrigineRS at Goodwood Circuit it was obvious that the Ph1 Vees were subject to far more body roll than their Ph2 siblings when hooked up through the tight chicanes. Optioning KWs to a Ph1 would therefore be pragmatic.

On a Ph2, it’s a slightly different story. Konis give a perfectly good solution. They are just really difficult to acquire, hence KWs are arguably preferable outside of SGM’s procurement expertise.

RSC suspension components have a higher price tariff and this has deterred many.

 

[10]

On a Ph2, it’s a slightly different story. Konis give a perfectly good solution. They are just really difficult to acquire, hence KWs are arguably preferable outside of SGM’s procurement expertise.

Are you referring to the standard Konis, as I still have mine although they are in need of refurbishment. You say that the Konis provide a perfectly good solution, are you referring to road driving? I've found the car infinitely more dynamic when driving on track with the KWs, unsurprisingly I suppose. I think having a discussion about spring rates with KW might be the route I take as I have no idea what they provide with the dampers and they are obviously integral to the ride/performance. I just hope the dampers don't need to be re-valved if I change them.

 

[Kett]

Yes, I was referring to ‘standard’ Koni set up.
With respect to the Ph2 (I haven’t driven a Ph1 with OE suspension), ‘fair weather’ track day fun can be had on standard set up. This is despite the design brief from Renault for premium/comfort GT type duties.

A few members have tried to go one better for track day bias. This account by GlowRed reads well:
http://www.glowred.com/my-cars/renault-clio-v6-255.php

Ultimately though, he couldn’t achieve the gains/times he was hoping for and soon moved on. The kerb-weight, CofG and wheel-base means that ‘the laws of Physics’ are not in the Vees favour.

I think my point was (in the last post) that some V6 owners have gone for KWv3 because they wanted an adjustable set-up and others have gone for them as Koni’s aren’t freely available.

Don’t forget there’s an idiosyncrasy in the V6 community to keep the Vees as TWR/Renault intended. On that basis, some would choose in inconvenience of refurbishing their old Koni’s over brand-new alternatives. I don’t subscribe to that train of thought. (FTR I had long sourced brand-new Koni’s for my Ph2 2018 refresh).

 

[Kett]

Yes, I was referring to ‘standard’ Koni set up.
With respect to the Ph2 (I haven’t driven a Ph1 with OE suspension), ‘fair weather’ track day fun can be had on standard set up. This is despite the design brief from Renault for premium/comfort GT type duties.

A few members have tried to go one better for track day bias. This account by GlowRed reads well:
http://www.glowred.com/my-cars/renault-clio-v6-255.php

Ultimately though, he couldn’t achieve the gains/times he was hoping for and soon moved on. The kerb-weight, CofG and wheel-base means that ‘the laws of Physics’ are not in the Vees favour.

I think my point was (in the last post) that some V6 owners have gone for KWv3 because they wanted an adjustable set-up and others have gone for them as Koni’s aren’t freely available.

Don’t forget there’s an idiosyncrasy in the V6 community to keep the Vees as TWR/Renault intended. On that basis, some would choose in inconvenience of refurbishing their old Koni’s over brand-new alternatives. I don’t subscribe to that train of thought. (FTR I had long sourced brand-new Koni’s for my Ph2 2018 refresh).

[album]22848[/album]

 

[Jitstar]

I think popular in the Porsche circles are the Koni FSD’s; Frequency Selective Damping, which are supposed to help take some of the harshness off the ride.

Tbf - on older 911’s I think the tire sidewall helps loads.

I went KW, mostly as it was part of a bunch of bits I picked up. Others have described it as a hard ride - but as someone who had a R53 Mini JCW, these things are all relative! That thing had really stiff suspension and run-flats….ouch!

 

[10]

Ultimately though, he couldn’t achieve the gains/times he was hoping for and soon moved on. The kerb-weight, CofG and wheel-base means that ‘the laws of Physics’ are not in the Vees favour.

Yes, clearly the V6 is an awful choice if you want something to improve lap times in! Personally, even on track I think the driving experience is more important than timing. I'd rather take Lotus Cortina round Goodwood than a Renault Megane RS for example!

I did go to dinner in the car last night and a quick dash across the countryside and back got me wondering what I was moaning about. I think when you are driving briskly and actually using the suspension then there is nothing wrong with the KWs, it's just when you want to go for a pint of milk. I should also mention that the roads where I live are a joke, so that probably factors in to my thinking.

I think popular in the Porsche circles are the Koni FSD’s; Frequency Selective Damping, which are supposed to help take some of the harshness off the ride.

Pretty sure this is what my friend fitted to his Boxster. I also got a good opportunity to buy my KWs nearly new and didn't give it much thought. I'm certainly not looking to go back to standard!

 

[Lankan]

Having switched from the standard Konis to KW V3s after 3 years, I can only say that I much prefer the KWs, which is a noticeable improvement for the kind of use I put it through. Quite good on track at Goodwood and when 'on it' during spirited drives.

Yes, it is a bit stiff, but not overly so when compared to the stock Koni set up. I recall Scott used helper springs in the front, but it also depends on the bump and rebound settings used. I had two different set-ups, one softer and the other harder - I settled on the harder setup. Mind you the Exige S RGB is a touch harder though, but it does soak up the bumps quite well, which may well be down to the difference between KW V3s (Vee with MPSS & MPS4 tyres) and the Ohlins (Exige with NS-2R tyres), so it's all relative.

Have you experimented with the settings?

 

[webbo]

What to do? Hope someone can help. Ph 2. 68k miles. Ok all my miles are road miles. Could be a Sunday morning qualifier or a trip to the continent. I’m sure the suspension is due a change or refresh I’ve done 46k in 16 years in mine but can you tell over that sort of time/mileage? how it compares to the first time? Anyway it’s not a 2cv by a long way. Suggestions/thoughts anyone. Thought about ringing Scott as it’s due a visit

 

[d7ve_b]

I was in your position and went the KW route via Scott, I wouldn’t go back to standard now. Mines a Sunday morning car but has done a trip to Le Mans on them and it was spot on.

 

[webbo]

Cheers mate. I think whatever i do will have Scott’s input. Maybe Kw are popular for a reason. Fit the best & fit it once

 

[10]

Having switched from the standard Konis to KW V3s after 3 years, I can only say that I much prefer the KWs, which is a noticeable improvement for the kind of use I put it through. Quite good on track at Goodwood and when 'on it' during spirited drives.

Yes, it is a bit stiff, but not overly so when compared to the stock Koni set up. I recall Scott used helper springs in the front, but it also depends on the bump and rebound settings used. I had two different set-ups, one softer and the other harder - I settled on the harder setup. Mind you the Exige S RGB is a touch harder though, but it does soak up the bumps quite well, which may well be down to the difference between KW V3s (Vee with MPSS & MPS4 tyres) and the Ohlins (Exige with NS-2R tyres), so it's all relative.

Have you experimented with the settings?

Hi Dulan,

I've yet to visit centre of gravity with mine, which I really need to do and have been putting off for a couple of years now. Having been using the day almost daily since it came out of storage, I think I'm over the initial surprise and thinking, "shit this is loud and bumpy". I think Covid did something strange to my ears and made them more sensitive!

 

[Lankan]

Having switched from the standard Konis to KW V3s after 3 years, I can only say that I much prefer the KWs, which is a noticeable improvement for the kind of use I put it through. Quite good on track at Goodwood and when 'on it' during spirited drives.

Yes, it is a bit stiff, but not overly so when compared to the stock Koni set up. I recall Scott used helper springs in the front, but it also depends on the bump and rebound settings used. I had two different set-ups, one softer and the other harder - I settled on the harder setup. Mind you the Exige S RGB is a touch harder though, but it does soak up the bumps quite well, which may well be down to the difference between KW V3s (Vee with MPSS & MPS4 tyres) and the Ohlins (Exige with NS-2R tyres), so it's all relative.

Have you experimented with the settings?

Hi Dulan,

I've yet to visit centre of gravity with mine, which I really need to do and have been putting off for a couple of years now. Having been using the day almost daily since it came out of storage, I think I'm over the initial surprise and thinking, "s**t this is loud and bumpy". I think Covid did something strange to my ears and made them more sensitive!

Ah, thought you would have made it to Center Gravity by now, but guess it was a COVID-induced disruption. I too was supposed to take the GR Yaris to them last year, but it never happened. We could synch our visits to CG if you are interested. Haven't booked a date yet, but planning to make the trip sometime this Spring.

Yeah, I to find a similar feeling once I jump back into the Vee after a while, especially first time after taking it out of storage, and transitioning from the softly sprung, and quiet, but rather mundane daily driver. As regards, the noise, which exhaust are you running?

 

[10]

Having switched from the standard Konis to KW V3s after 3 years, I can only say that I much prefer the KWs, which is a noticeable improvement for the kind of use I put it through. Quite good on track at Goodwood and when 'on it' during spirited drives.

Yes, it is a bit stiff, but not overly so when compared to the stock Koni set up. I recall Scott used helper springs in the front, but it also depends on the bump and rebound settings used. I had two different set-ups, one softer and the other harder - I settled on the harder setup. Mind you the Exige S RGB is a touch harder though, but it does soak up the bumps quite well, which may well be down to the difference between KW V3s (Vee with MPSS & MPS4 tyres) and the Ohlins (Exige with NS-2R tyres), so it's all relative.

Have you experimented with the settings?

Hi Dulan,

I've yet to visit centre of gravity with mine, which I really need to do and have been putting off for a couple of years now. Having been using the day almost daily since it came out of storage, I think I'm over the initial surprise and thinking, "s**t this is loud and bumpy". I think Covid did something strange to my ears and made them more sensitive!

Ah, thought you would have made it to Center Gravity by now, but guess it was a COVID-induced disruption. I too was supposed to take the GR Yaris to them last year, but it never happened. We could synch our visits to CG if you are interested. Haven't booked a date yet, but planning to make the trip sometime this Spring.

Yeah, I to find a similar feeling once I jump back into the Vee after a while, especially first time after taking it out of storage, and transitioning from the softly sprung, and quiet, but rather mundane daily driver. As regards, the noise, which exhaust are you running?

Perhaps we could! I've got a friend whose Boxster needs attending to as well so we could make a good day of it.

I've got a Spike backbox and an ITG airbox. At 80mph+ it's a bit tedious. Not such an issue in the UK but when going as far as the Swiss alps it can be... draining! I'll try to stop whinging so much!

 

[Lankan]

Having switched from the standard Konis to KW V3s after 3 years, I can only say that I much prefer the KWs, which is a noticeable improvement for the kind of use I put it through. Quite good on track at Goodwood and when 'on it' during spirited drives.

Yes, it is a bit stiff, but not overly so when compared to the stock Koni set up. I recall Scott used helper springs in the front, but it also depends on the bump and rebound settings used. I had two different set-ups, one softer and the other harder - I settled on the harder setup. Mind you the Exige S RGB is a touch harder though, but it does soak up the bumps quite well, which may well be down to the difference between KW V3s (Vee with MPSS & MPS4 tyres) and the Ohlins (Exige with NS-2R tyres), so it's all relative.

Have you experimented with the settings?

Hi Dulan,

I've yet to visit centre of gravity with mine, which I really need to do and have been putting off for a couple of years now. Having been using the day almost daily since it came out of storage, I think I'm over the initial surprise and thinking, "s**t this is loud and bumpy". I think Covid did something strange to my ears and made them more sensitive!

Ah, thought you would have made it to Center Gravity by now, but guess it was a COVID-induced disruption. I too was supposed to take the GR Yaris to them last year, but it never happened. We could synch our visits to CG if you are interested. Haven't booked a date yet, but planning to make the trip sometime this Spring.

Yeah, I to find a similar feeling once I jump back into the Vee after a while, especially first time after taking it out of storage, and transitioning from the softly sprung, and quiet, but rather mundane daily driver. As regards, the noise, which exhaust are you running?

Perhaps we could! I've got a friend whose Boxster needs attending to as well so we could make a good day of it.

I've got a Spike backbox and an ITG airbox. At 80mph+ it's a bit tedious. Not such an issue in the UK but when going as far as the Swiss alps it can be... draining! I'll try to stop whinging so much!

Hey. Oli, that would indeed be a good run out. Haven't got a date in mind yet as I have been distracted for a while now on another project, t will drop you an email to synch up and work out logistics.

Didn't I meet your friend at Silverstone last year? Are going to make to the Classic this year?

 

[Lankan]

What to do? Hope someone can help. Ph 2. 68k miles. Ok all my miles are road miles. Could be a Sunday morning qualifier or a trip to the continent. I’m sure the suspension is due a change or refresh I’ve done 46k in 16 years in mine but can you tell over that sort of time/mileage? how it compares to the first time? Anyway it’s not a 2cv by a long way. Suggestions/thoughts anyone. Thought about ringing Scott as it’s due a visit

I think KW V3s are your best option if your dampers need replacing as the ride can be set up and to feel exactly with the OEM Koni dampers, if that is what you are after, but offer more options should you wish to explore further.

 

[10]

Didn't I meet your friend at Silverstone last year? Are going to make to the Classic this year?

I think you probably did! I haven't got a date either and the car has just gone down the Scott's for service MOT etc. so I'm not in a rush. I'm still trying to justify the c.£500 cost as well... although I know it must be worth it!

 

[webbo]

Ok guys thanks. Looks like Scott for a chat & then KW V3. Any clue as to cost. Will it cost more than a tank of v power ?

 

[Lankan]

Didn't I meet your friend at Silverstone last year? Are going to make to the Classic this year?

I think you probably did! I haven't got a date either and the car has just gone down the Scott's for service MOT etc. so I'm not in a rush. I'm still trying to justify the c.£500 cost as well... although I know it must be worth it!

Understood. Will drop you an email when I am ready to book.

Ok guys thanks. Looks like Scott for a chat & then KW V3. Any clue as to cost. Will it cost more than a tank of v power?

I think you might have to revise your budget upward quite a bit though: LINK

 

[webbo]

Mmm ok, now the cost isn’t the main factor but it’s a lump of money. I went down the multi adjustment route with Ohlins on my Gsxr 1000 back in the day. What I found was that too many options of preload, compression & rebound was just confusing. Get it wrong & it’s really wrong. Passive damper suggestions anyone. ? Do they exist? Ta