Remapping

[Mulgari]

Hi guys

Just thought i would post up a thread to see what the interest might be in a group buy, at work we write custom maps for all our different vehicles so just about to have one done for the Vee. By custom i mean that each car is run on the rollers and then analized before a map is written, this way you can make the most out of any mods you may have eg exhaust, induction etc.

will keep you updated with how mine comes out but maybe somthing to think about, if there is enough people wanting it i can probably get a really good price

 

[Matt]

Hi I'd be interested in this mate.

 

[Mulgari]

Hi I'd be interested in this mate.

cool i think if i can get 6-7 of us interested can hopefully get the rolling road and the map for about 300+VAT obviously can get more discount the more people i put through the rolling road, maybe if people arnt interested in the mapping maybe we could just get a rolling road day going?

 

[Brad]

im definately interested in this where abouts are you based

 

[MattGWilson]

I'm interested, when mapping, is it just trial & error or do you take other readings other than from the wheels?

 

[DFB]

I'm in for this Mulgari d00d.

The remapping side of things is quite interested and certainly very popular in more tuneable cars. I met a guy last week in a R.S Megan who had a Stage 1 remap emailed to him which he then uploaded to his car. Ker-azy.

Where abouts are you anyway (Hillingdon, Greater London?) and where do you propose.

By the way, Spike is already organising a rolling road meet here :rollseyes:

 

[taipan]

Definitely interested in a remap!!

 

[looch]

I was told politely to "not waste my money" a remap on standard clio v6....even ones with induction kits and different backboxes you may as well be peeing money in the air for all the difference it makes?

Id be very interested if this isnt the case? Maybe someone who has had a custom remap can advise???

 

[MattGWilson]

It's true that a remap should be done after doing other alterations, like cams, pistons etc. I'd imagine you'd gain a bit, but not a lot... But for £300 is it that bad?

 

[k1ano]

It's true that a remap should be done after doing other alterations, like cams, pistons etc. I'd imagine you'd gain a bit, but not a lot... But for £300 is it that bad?

It is if driveability is worse ...

I am not saying it will be as I don't know of the skills, experience and capability on offer ... but mapping takes time, expertise and money and the less of that invested the more generic and limited are the results IMHO. There may very well be small and simple changes which can be made to deliver noticeable results over stock driveability due to the fact manufacturers engineer in some caution into ignition timing and mixtures etc.

The Bosch ECU in the Vee is very sophisticated, yes perhaps easy to plug into and adjust ... but it treats the engine and ancilliaries as a complete system and the drive-by-wire throttle simply forms an input to the ECU as a 'torque request' and the ECU determines how much throttle adjustment to provide based on the status of the whole system. I would hazard a guess that simple mapping doesn't take into account whether things like air-con is active or not, acceleration demands from the pedal, mixture readings from the lambda sensors etc. in other words - real life driving and variables.

I don't mean to do an injustice and am happy to be corrected or for a little more insight to be provided as to what is involed or what will be done. Is it just tweaking ignition and fuel sites in the map for example based on wide-band O2 sensor readings etc.

Martin

 

[Spike]

Hi I'd be interested in this mate.

cool i think if i can get 6-7 of us interested can hopefully get the rolling road and the map for about 300+VAT obviously can get more discount the more people i put through the rolling road, maybe if people arnt interested in the mapping maybe we could just get a rolling road day going?

Yes i am definitely interested in the results , mostly what happens to the fuel at high rpm 5-7k, 300 quid does sound expensive for around an hours work, i say an hour because most dynos use an auto map programme that pokes the numbers in for you as you drive on the rollers, if its done by hand thats another matter. but after one is done you have a base map to just modify for each different vehicle, 7 cars at £300 + vat = £2520, not a bad days work.
as for a rolling road day, WHAT A GREAT IDEA! i'm up for that.
as for getting your moneys worth, my clio runs as rich as f**k at the top end, which i am trying to address, if i could map this to fix it i would save a fortune on gas. probably why the vee is crap on fuel.

 

[Jim Green]

PERSONALLY : I've had two cars live mapped, my 457bhp Cosworth, and my old Mitsubishi Evolution VII (392bhp)............. Both were live mapped by Karl Norris of Norris Motorsport, each taking the best part of a full day to ensure all aspects of driving style were covered. Both cars drove perfectly docile if I wanted, and both cars gave the maximum power the components were capable off producing when on track (Both cars being 100% reliable both on the road and track, due to perfect mapping). The cars were "Live" mapped both on the road, and on track during a track day.

I'm sad to say I'm not a believer in mapping cars on a rolling road..... they need mapping in a real life situation (If you only intend to drive them on the road, then mapping it on the road is the way to go. If you intend doing trackdays, then you have a whole set of additional parameters to take into account that can't be simulated on rollers, they just don't simulate the real driving environment of both road and track.

For me any live mapping should be done in a real life situation. Rollers are fine for establishing a base map......... but not for fine tuning, which Renault probably already did a better job than even a good operator and rollers could do.

SORRY, JUST MY OPINION FROM EXPERIENCE.

To really understand the meaning of remapping "Live Mapping" you could do nothing better with the next ten minutes, than to read the link below which is written by a very good friend of mine : I think you'll find it very informative :

http://www.motorsport-developments.co.uk/whatismap.html

Or you could spend an hour reading this one : http://www.passionford.com/forum/techni ... uired.html

Hope it enlightened you.

 

[ray]

hmmmm this is going to be a interesting thread( BY THE WAY I HAVE NO OPINION ON THIS JUST WATCHING) :camera:

 

[Kett]

I had a RSTuning remap (without rollers) some 5 years ago on my Vee.
I'd have to join up to the forthcoming rolling road sessions to verify whether it gave any increase in power...
IMO it was the delivery of the power (and some fuel savings) that improved - but that was only my subjective opinion.

It's the cost of what is essentially "a few minutes of IT service" that makes the mind boggle. [smilie=icon_eek.gif]

 

[Spike]

hmmmm this is going to be a interesting thread( BY THE WAY I HAVE NO OPINION ON THIS JUST WATCHING) :camera:

:approve:

 

[Spike]

I had a RSTuning remap (without rollers) some 5 years ago on my Vee.
I'd have to join up to the forthcoming rolling road sessions to verify whether it gave any increase in power...
IMO it was the delivery of the power (and some fuel savings) that improved - but that was only my subjective opinion.

It's the cost of what is essentially "a few minutes of IT service" that makes the mind boggle. [smilie=icon_eek.gif]

it is exactly the fuel savings and delivery of power that i am interested in.
put your name down on the dyno day list!

 

[Jim Green]

All manufacturers build in a safety margin on many parameters of the ecu and the components it controls. Two very basic but obvious factors that give more or less power are how close to lambda 1 the fuelling is set, and the ignition advancement. Many tuners will reduce the fuelling, causing the fuelling to run closer to lambda 1 (reducing the fuelling letting it run weaker than the manufacturer programmed), and advancing the ignition (Causing the safety margine to be reduced in the ignition timing). Both of these very basic adjustments will give more power, but you have reduced your safety margin, and if the margin has been reduced too much, you could end up doing costly damage to your engine.

In certain circumstances, what appears to give more power and still remain reliable, may change in different circumstances. Ie : Driving your car in cool conditions on the road, where WOT will only be used for a few seconds may not show potential problems you may encounter on a track day where you'll be using WOT Settings for much longer periods and maybe in the middle of summer....... All of these paremeters need to be taken into account when playing with factory settings.

I'm not disputing Mulgari's knowledge or experience, just questioning the individual tuning of cars on the rolling road in an hour, and expecting better performance that Renault spent probably months on.

Oh Dear........ Mulgari's not going to like me is he... :s :s :s

 

[taipan]

What I know about mapping and remapping could fill a thimble so I'm finding the info/opinions on this thread v useful

 

[Duncan]

for what its worth, i think if its not broke, dont fix it.

whislt you might gain 1-3bhp, you might end up with a car that doesnt idle smoothly, or one that cuts out when you pull up to a set of lights, one that backfires, or one thats actually lost 20bhp when read on another rolling road (has happened in the past!)...... etc

If it was a turbo'd car with real gains to be had, i could see the attraction. But, theres not & i learned it the hard way tuning my old vee. Cost me a fortune and whilst it was faster, it was never the same.

But, its your car, feel free to ignore me and im not calling into question the skills of any companies.

 

[ray]

NA engines are not cheap to tune