Phase 1 - AR02 KYX (#0430) back up for sale....

[Lankan]

Why would they need to though Dulan? If the bodywork isnt upto scratch then that is fair enough. But, if its genuinly been put back together as it should have been then why is it any lesser car than others at £10-12k? Granted this isnt one of those rare ultra rare low milage examples in a rarer colour so it shouldnt command a higher price than any other run of the mill ph1 but it is by all accounts a straight honest car in recent pics.
It seems that only v6clio.net knows of its past. If there is no show of a previous accident repair, how would the current owner know?

Brett, I am not disputing that the car may have been repaired to a good standard, what I have an issue with are statements like "Genuine straight, clean car" appearing in the advert, implying that the car has never been in an accident, which in this case is clearly not case. Wonder what the legal standpoint will be if somebody bought this Vee, which is advertised as a "Genuine straight, clean car", came on here, discovered this thread and felt that the advertisement misrepresented the car, and decided to take action against the seller for misrepresentation. As such, it would have been better if the seller (Michael James Classic Cars) omitted the aforementioned statement, allowed the buyer to carryout his/her own due diligence, and decide for themselves.

On the point of originality, three key USP's of the ultimate collector car is one with original panels, original paint and matching numbers (i.e. exactly as it left the factory). We know that only a tiny minority fall into this category, but IMO when stacking cars against each other when looking to buy one, given the choice, I think most would go for an undamaged car over a damage-repaired one. As such, trying to attract that majority by making false declarations and/or misrepresentation is the issue I have here.

Not everybody is, or will be, guided by the same moral compass, so, as Martin alludes to above, we cannot expect sellers to divulge everything, but I would not expect to be sold something that is misrepresented as something it is not.

 

[ed_harland]

Perhaps to 'Michael James Classic Cars' it is a "Genuine straight, clean car" If they don't have the benefit of belonging to v6clio.net how would they know of this part of it's history. I don't have a problem with it being described as such unless when viewed it's obviously repaired.

 

[rustedandrotten]

If it is purely a minor fender bender which has not distorted the frame of the car and it has been repaired using factory components leaving no evidence of damage it would be very hard to dispute that it wasn't straight or clean. You would be amazed at the number of cars that used to need repair at PDI which is one of the reasons that they are now covered in white plastic when transported, Nearly every new Porsche used to get paint for chips, dinks and scratches before the proud new owner picked up their delivery mileage pride and joy. Pedantry has to have a line drawn, stone chips on the front end being blown in by a back street garage could actually be a worse job than a new bumper fitted by a factory approved repairer. Major structural damage to the monocoque or insurance categorised write offs certainly do not constitute a clean bill of health but if repaired the car should be OK but must be declared and suffer the loss in value compared with a genuinely clean car. As always 'Caveat emptor', do your research and always get as much info as possible, the internet is wonderful as is a professional engineers report from someone who is conversant with the subject such as Scotty G :bow:

 

[Tatelyle]

I'd love to get involved in this one, but as a new member, I will bow out as not to offend a high percentage of members.....

 

[Brett]

I'd love to get involved in this one, but as a new member, I will bow out as not to offend a high percentage of members.....

Get in on it! I can't remember the last time people took offence on v6.net. Was probably about 4/5 years back when there were a couple of toss pots on board. Lol

 

[Tatelyle]

At the moment this tosspot needs you guys, so I think I'll hold my council,"don't cut your nose despite your face", as my old dad says

 

[Lankan]

Great to have a good old debate now and then...........

On to the topic, IMO unless one knows for a fact that a car is a "Genuine straight, clean car" (or anything else that implies that it has never been smashed) one shouldn't state it as such, which is the only aspect I am focusing on here. Another point that helps establish the context in this particular case, as referred to in the posts above, is that the same car will be up for auction on 10th October 2014 - so essentially there are two adverts for the same: Pistonheads & H&H Classic Auctions

Two points to note:
1. "Genuine straight, clean car" - No such claims in the auction listing, which starts off as "According to the www.V6clio.net website...", so seller should have access to the relevant info, and IMO should do one or both of the following: revise the PH advert (remove "Genuine straight, clean car") and/or revise the price to be in line with the estimate.

2. Price estimate is between £9,000 and £11,000 (circa 15% less than the price of £12,750 on the PH advert). If I was looking into this car then I would question why?

Note also that the Vee is not the only car from the same seller that has been listed in the same auction, and the guide prices of the other cars are much closer to their retail prices. For example, checked out the red Jaguar XJR-S (retail price £7,995, auction estimate £6-8K).

Having said that, it may just be a genuine mistake or may be the seller does not know about the car's history, but it is difficult to ignore the discrepancy between the auction estimate and the retail price.

 

[Ali]

Completely agree with Brett. Why on earth would you mention that when selling the car. Legally you're not obligated to do to so, and if the repair has been soundly done, you may not even know about it as the 2nd or 3rd owner to follow!

It's had a bump, so what. Is it CAT listed? No. Then providing it looks okay, drives okay; I would buy it.

V6clio stigma to buying cars is getting a little OTT...Same applies to cambelts.

 

[rustedandrotten]

Completely agree with Brett. Why on earth would you mention that when selling the car. Legally you're not obligated to do to so, and if the repair has been soundly done, you may not even know about it as the 2nd or 3rd owner to follow!

It's had a bump, so what. Is it CAT listed? No. Then providing it looks okay, drives okay; I would buy it.

V6clio sigma to buying cars is getting a little OTT...Same applies to cambelts.

Hear Hear! :approve: Though I didn't know that there was a Renault Sigma :rofl:

 

[ed_harland]

Completely agree with Brett. Why on earth would you mention that when selling the car. Legally you're not obligated to do to so, and if the repair has been soundly done, you may not even know about it as the 2nd or 3rd owner to follow!

It's had a bump, so what. Is it CAT listed? No. Then providing it looks okay, drives okay; I would buy it.

V6clio sigma to buying cars is getting a little OTT...Same applies to cambelts.

:approve:

 

[dal.a]

I can't see the problem, mine went through a hedge backwards and was repaired by Mark Fish probably better than it came out of the factory, it's not on the hit list so I wouldn't feel obliged to state it.

You may think that's morally wrong but then I don't think I'd advertise it as clean, straight car as I think that'd be bending the truth a little .

 

[rustedandrotten]

This forum is an excellent place to do due diligence,# 261 has a rare history of thumps bumps and general mistreatment as well as people who have genuinely looked after her, it can all be found here which is what I did before jumping in with the cash. The proud owner at the time didn't have a clue and was flabbergasted at the 'history' his car had and even more surprised when I went through it with an endoscope to show what the photos on here were intimating. Didn't bother me as I had spoken to most the previous owners and knew what I was up against and knew the quality of work done to what was not in reality a structurally damaged car, the prophets of doom gave the impression the car was worthless and had been damaged beyond repair!!
I repeat, CAVEAT EMPTOR!!
:approve: :approve: Do your due diligence and then make your mind up based on the evidence, I did and I got exactly what I wanted, a car that is outstanding but not that precious that I cant take it out and horse the ar5e off it on track when I want to

 

[Kett]

In Porsche circles, matching numbers / original panel cars command a premium.
I think that is the point that Dulan makes.
The wording of the advert intimates this (or arguably not)... hence we're seeing both sides of the story.

When our Vees are eventually riddled with rust worm; the boundaries will be blurred even further!

Maybe I'll be rich enough to afford a 'Singer Vee' by then?
: )

 

[rustedandrotten]

Just to keep things in perspective, the auction estimate is £9,500 to £11,000 for this car so not particularly inflated, doubt that there will be any loony bidding to stratospheric values! Guess that the dealers are just trying to unload a car that has stuck on the forecourt.

 

[Duncan]

For the estimate, if the repair work was good, it's a steal!!!!

 

[Lankan]

In Porsche circles, matching numbers / original panel cars command a premium.
I think that is the point that Dulan makes.
The wording of the advert intimates this (or arguably not)... hence we're seeing both sides of the story.

When our Vees are eventually riddled with rust worm; the boundaries will be blurred even further!

Maybe I'll be rich enough to afford a 'Singer Vee' by then?
: )

Kett, you are indeed right, but I would add that most high-value vehicles do attract a premium if they are original panel and matching numbers. As we know, in Porsche circles such things do matter, and at least on the air cooled ones (up to the 993), one can tell if a panel/wing has been replaced, by identifying any missing spot welds, which body shops neglect to reinstate, as per the factory, when they replace a panel. Only a few specialist shops such as Ninemeister do this. So it is much easier to track an original panel car (or one that is as close to original).

Now I am not sure whether one could do this with Clio V6's, and assuming one cannot tell, then I am curious to know how the seller can make such a statement without knowing for sure, which is my point, not whether or not the car has had an accident. As such, it would be much better to say nothing, and let the buyer do their own due diligence, but if the intention by implying that the car is original is to quote a higher price then IMO that is wrong.

Lastly, I am not knocking this particular Vee, and don't have anything against damage repaired vehicles, but the repairs need to have been done properly, and of course the advert should not attempt to distort the true facts, which IMO the advert on PH does, but the auction listing doesn't.

CAVEAT EMPTOR as many have said before.

 

[rustedandrotten]

After all that it didn't sell :rofl: :rofl:

 

[Lankan]

Interesting since the auction estimate, from what is known about this Vee, represents good value.........still advertised by the dealer, so maybe one could approach Michael James Classic Cars and agree a deal.