HORSE POWER =BULLSHIT

[k1ano]

Isn't the solution rediculously simple?

Take the engine out (you're clearly not shy of spending money) and get it put on a real dyno where you're not subject to flattery or the subjective estimations of "transmission losses", ambient temp corrections, poor cooling blah blah.

But ask youself first does it matter? Is the car better than it was for you? Do you need to attach an arbitary number to it in order to in some way vaildate the choices you have made? If you enjoy the car and you sense an improvement then go with it and just be happy.

The one thing I've learnt from all of this is that actually having the car and driving it matters so much more than a piece of paper with a graph that most people can't interpret and is largely found on a bunch of, at best, semi-educated guesses.

Cynical? yes, but after 3, nearly 4 years of watching and participating in this community and others it has become clear that it all counts for diddly squat and driving the things and enjoying them is what matters.

Now all that I do agree with

Martin

 

[v6Max]

Maximus,
Where have you been?........up in the hills contemplating and meditating by the sound of it.
Good to have you back, you're right of course.
How's yours? update your thread.

Hi Tim - I just did an update, not good...

We must speak at some point!

 

[ray]

thanks for all your comments but it think most of you have missed my point i agree with you max it means nothing but you know as i do to much bull shit in this game my point was more the fact that i have a car with a bit of tunning done on it 216 bhp at the wheel in conclusion all un modified cars must be running less however the print out i have says 292 bhp how does that work then ????????? in most lines of work such discrepencies would just be laughable :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: but what i find intresting is that so many defend this i like to know what i am paying for and were im starting from the actual figure isent inportant but you need a datum to start from

 

[Kett]

but what i find intresting is that so many defend this i like to know what i am paying for and were im starting from the actual figure isent inportant but you need a datum to start from

Good point Ray.
It does seems nuts that the end user need to bring along the "same unmodified stock Vee" to caliberate the instruments.
I can see why that might be ultimately necessary though.

Fancy a 1/4 mile? :race:

 

[T1RBO]

Ray

My printout says 292 as well - maybe you have mine, or I have yours.

Maybe it's a conspiracy :rofl:

 

[T1RBO]

I'm considering whether cost should be factored in - I get more bhp on the sheet as I've spent more.

I could also make the case for reporting less for being so daft as to to have spent so much receiving so little. iolin:

As most of us only live once, I propose trying to enjoy the car so, rather than contemplate my navel, I'm off to the barn to get the gearbox out - again.

M

 

[BenR]

Ben do you have any ideas why it isn't producing the same figures as it was years ago? If the car is healthy does it actually matter? by which I mean, should we bother putting a car on a RR at all?

The car is new to me, so it is a case of delve in a 'learn' what has already been done and how the 'system' is running holistically.

Its not a case of it running as it used too, or if it has 'lost' something, that is of little interest to me as you dont really 'lose' 50bhp. If there were significant mechanical issues, the map (which should stay constant as i doubt its running fully closed loop in its entirety) would be reading all over the shop in terms of afr curves, but its not and like i said, its actually pretty much fine.

Should you bother putting a car on a rr at all, sure, if your planning to do work on it. Just as much as a builder needs to use a spirit level and a tape measure, we need to use our rules. If its stock and all you do is fill it up with fuel, then not really.

 

[BenR]

What I must take up issue with is the constant nonsense that these engines are different or some sort of mystery to tune.

Hi Ben

I'm not sure that I've come across that sentiment with the cars over the past 4 years. Costly, yes, but mysterious, no. Is this something I've missed?

I read time and time again, on this forum and in this thread, that the cars and the lack of off the shelf parts make them daunting or different to modify than any other car.

 

[BenR]

Cost should have nothing to do with the numbers on the graph you see at the end of the job, some cars cost a fortune, some take nothing more than a remap to see massive gains......you pick your car and roll with the punches.

Does it matter what the graph says at the end, well yes........
It is, afterall, a simple method to test the net power your car is transferring to the road......flywheel calculations aside, there is no need to delve deep into the debate about corrections/calibrations as there are set industry standards to follow. Besides, flywheel calculations are not as inaccurate as you'd think if you have ever spent time with both engine and chassis dynos, they give a good indication and rather than looking at them cynically with a 'pinch of salt' you just have to realise that your looking at something with a few percent deviance.

We'll gladly stick a stock V6 on to see what comparison can be made, but I wouldnt expect it to be miles off since and you certainly dont calibrate the instruments to the item your testing. As an example, the rest of the renault lineup of 2ltr clios and megane sports are tested in varying states of tune and all line up with expected outputs in stock trim. This particular dyno is a bit of a ball buster, but not because it is reading low, its just reading closer to real than many people like.

I agree that it is all about enjoying the car, and power figures arent what you drive, but if it can be measured then why not. And I certainly wouldn't say that its based on semi-educated guesses, as you step beyond the realms of 'road-tuner' reality you realise there is no way around the laws of physics and things become very simple.

 

[T1RBO]

Hi Ben

I'm 100% behind the logic in your posts, but still think that the engine is not a mystery to tune. Parts are available, but their relatively limited volumes make them expensive compared to more widely used motors.

Those of us who are properly 'afflicted' have sought solutions out and are quite happy to share their source, cost, and most importantly, whether they worked. There are 5 or 6 'known' cars on the forum and none of us has been shy in making knowledge available.

I also think that there is a general over-optimism on what can be achieved with what is quite an ageing, budget lump. In my experience, once you approach the 100bhp/litre milestone (N/A), then the cost escalates pretty steeply thereafter. 420bhp with 'our' engine is certainly not an affordable option by normal standards

A standard V6 would be an interesting baseline to try and understand Ray's current dilema but I'm comfortable that the rally car doesn't drive like a standard one, and so I'll stay clear of rolling roads until it's T/B time when the whole saga will start again....

 

[BenR]

You're mis reading me,I am also saying that these engines are NOT a mystery, but commenting on the percieved thought that they are.

420bhp is not 'affordable' no, but it certainly isnt 'hard'.

I already have supply of all major components required, and TBH I wouldn't use any of the off the shelf components readily available anyway.

 

[T1RBO]

Not misreading you at all, my question was why you thought the perceived view was that they WERE rather than the reality, which is that they are not.

If you've ideas beyond what we've all discovered previously, then please share as we don't have secrets here

 

[BenR]

Ain't it a bloody journey owning and tuning a performance car ?!

I made a concious decision NOT to tune my Vee as the cost v return was prohibitive, based partly on what was being said by some of you guys (even years back), the relative lack of knowledge/tuning parts and that the engine is N/A - where I am used to turbocharged cars and the relatively low cost to tune (within reason).

I am sure we can all see, from this thread and others, the highs and lows of embarking on what can be a costly road to more Vee engine performance. If the Vee was more of a mainstream car undoubtedly the costs would be lower and the tuning knowledge and options greater, but perhaps then we wouldn't own them ? Add to that the element of trust you have to put in other people to give you the best advice, deliver quality work at a fair price and not to be treated as a cash cow ...

After all we could just go and buy any number of other cars and make them go fast for a lot less money & hassle - but where is the fun in that ?

All this doesn't change the fact that we all have different interests in our cars and objectives and I for one watch with interest and respect to see how each owner treads their own path whether it be engine tuning, bespoke developments, cosmetic changes, even the dreaded repairs ...

Martin

Just one example.

Parts supply is nothing anybody really needs telling where or whom to go to, I choose my suppliers and manufacturers of engine components based on my own experience and the level of quality they deliver. These parts on their own dont make power so its relatively insensitive information if I use omega/Je/arrows/Saenz etc etc. However, my 'secrets' on where i percieve the power to be made and the techniques I apply in the critical flow processing side of things, well.....it would be foolish of me to simply tell someone what I do, and in most cases the information will be useless to most.

 

[T1RBO]

JMHO but I read Martin's post as a whole lot of common sense.

 

[ray]

let me tell you were im at this has caused a lot of comments and yes bhp dosent mean anything but i now believe that i have a true figure to work from so we can now gage any gains to be had what pissed me of is the gulf between the two which makes me think some one may be wrong???????????i have cams fitted to my car that i am lead to believe there is little if no details at all profiles etc????????/ the vvt is also not working in conjunction with the cams??????????? so when setting up and mapping it must have been a bugger to do??????????????? at the moment i have someone striping the engine and putting these problems right and hopefully making it go like it should :race:

 

[T1RBO]

Bhp does matter Ray, it's trying to choose who is right when you have five outfits telling you different figures [smilie=icon_aaargh.gif]

I'm not sure what cams you have used but if they have the word 'Trophy' in them, you are aware that Trophy cars don't have VVT? Just a thought.

Best of luck mate, keep the faith

 

[Spike]

I'm not sure what cams you have used but if they have the word 'Trophy' in them, you are aware that Trophy cars don't have VVT? Just a thought.

Why dont the trophy cars use vvt, is the vvt crap, or were the trophy cars before this technology, ie too old. does the extra horsepower of the ph2 come from the vvt???

 

[T1RBO]

My guess would be:

As the Trophy was never homologated, they could choose any engine and Renault/Huger already had pre-Clio V6 experience with the non-vvt unit.

VVT allows the engine to be mapped for torque and lower emmissions low down and then power higher up. As a race engine only exists for one purpose, the added complexity of VVT would be another level of unreliability that is best avoided.

 

[TRW1]

That's my understanding too Mark,
VVT is more useful for a road car that gets stuck in a 10 mile tail-back on the M25 but also wants to zip along at high speed and/or revs as well.

Congrats to Ford by the way with their first (and nearly second) BTCC victory since 2000.
Owen Developments turbo and mapping I believe.

 

[T1RBO]

Congrats to Ford by the way with their first (and nearly second) BTCC victory since 2000.
Owen Developments turbo and mapping I believe.

Go on then, I'll take the bait - have you got the dyno sheet? :rofl: