F878 SRX - a few changes

[-Jo-]

803's handle 300 bhp without any problem, with a safe dutycycle. Cup cars use them 2 and they run double pumps and 6 bar idle. Phil got them in his car and hes doing somewhere in the 250's ATW with only 20 psi. Again, custom mapped.

 

[MakeEverything]

Looking at Jo's RR Sheet, i think im now considering a 316 degree cam!

 

[-Jo-]

good cam but horror to map it

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http://s224.photobucket.com/albums/dd11/joke222/?action=view&current=MOV06255.mp4

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300? cup cam, first start quadra
http://s182.photobucket.com/albums/x192/maartengtt/jacco 21 tq/?action=view&current=Jacco21.mp4

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http://www.youtube.com/user/jo21turbo?gl=NL&hl=nl#p/u/31/8hQSaWQynXI

 

[MakeEverything]

Bloody hell, sounds like a tractor! Is that the trouble you had mapping?

 

[-Jo-]

1200 rpm on idle to keep it steady, not possible to drive behind it because you get high on fuel. The lift was hughe on that cam ! The quadra has Craigs old set up, with oem cup cam and T34 with .48 housing. Goes like nuts and good power in low revs.

 

[MakeEverything]

1200 rpm on idle to keep it steady, not possible to drive behind it because you get high on fuel. The lift was hughe on that cam ! The quadra has Craigs old set up, with oem cup cam and T34 with .48 housing. Goes like nuts and good power in low revs.

Maybe something a bit softer for me then. What was the 300 cam like to map?

 

[-Jo-]

http://www.youtube.com/user/jo21turbo?gl=NL&hl=nl#p/u/44/NzMhbPbPsws

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and talking about strong engines ? Who would believe that it has being done with 0.3 bar oilpressure !!!

 

[Haz]

803's handle 300 bhp without any problem, with a safe dutycycle. Cup cars use them 2 and they run double pumps and 6 bar idle. Phil got them in his car and hes doing somewhere in the 250's ATW with only 20 psi. Again, custom mapped.

is that fuel pressure at idle!? do you know what afr's phil is running at wot and which fuel regulator/turbo? (its going to take me a while to figure who's who, and cars etc)
i could cope with a lumpy idle. just not loads of torque steer and wheelspin.

good vids, very nice car, looked really nice with the mag style photos, but that looks just as nice in the video :smokin:

---------- Post added at 11:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 PM ----------

1200 rpm on idle to keep it steady, not possible to drive behind it because you get high on fuel. The lift was hughe on that cam ! The quadra has Craigs old set up, with oem cup cam and T34 with .48 housing. Goes like nuts and good power in low revs.

when does it start to make boost and when does the power drop off?
how was the same setup with a .63 housing?

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http://www.youtube.com/user/jo21turbo?gl=NL&hl=nl#p/u/44/NzMhbPbPsws

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and talking about strong engines ? Who would believe that it has being done with 0.3 bar oilpressure !!!

thats seems too torquey low down for me, looks like a similar curve to the one of the engine you've recently sold where the cams the same? i think that cam with bigger ex housing

 

[B.roadbandit]

Are you building a road car or a track toy?
Why the thick head gasket?
Which liners are you gonna use?
Why full boost so high up the rev range?

 

[Haz]

Are you building a road car or a track toy?
Why the thick head gasket?
Which liners are you gonna use?
Why full boost so high up the rev range?

its my daily driver. no point having any power low down as cant be used round town or in traffic, may as well move the power up so can be used elsewhere. just the way i prefer it to drive.
when tuning there's many rough rules and guidelines which apply to any car, in the past its noticed that on stock engine 1 degree advance=1 psi boost=.1compression.
for quick comparison, the common hurdle for the 21 seems 18psi then pops a liner, which personally i think it down to mapping. if i use a thicker gasket dropping the compression .2 with a common setup then technically a could run 20psi before i pop, or 18psi safer. it then leaves more scope to adjust ignition and fueling. if i use std and the head has been skimmed then i could be limited to say 16. basically its easier to do it while apart.
i'll be using std engine and i think it can bu pushed quite far. over on rtoc, splitting liners and melting pistons was a weekly common occourance until wideband and det cans became cheaply availiable. until someone can tell me this sort of info on tried and tested methods i'm just guessing. seems no one actually monitors it, no wonder splitting liners is common, sayin it stinks of fuel isn't really a good measure and surely indicates a very rich section of map!
boost high up because thats the way i feel it feels like a fast car, i dont want to light the wheels up at 3k revs then feel like it wants to change gear at 5k. admittedly you do have to change driving style. also looking at dyno power graphs/figures i dont want the power to drop of until its nearly at the limiter, i like torque and hp figure to be similar, what jo has been posting up has been too far apart, responsive cars and cracking torque no doubt but just too low down for me. talking of which i dont know anyone who uses low figures of 12.5% transmission loss, can get optimistic figures. be nice to see some quarter mile figures if possible, more preferable realistic power figures imo

 

[danb]

Split liners is clearly down to the map, as the standard management cant read above one bar! so the car runs lean on anything over standard boost. Not to mention that the outter (1 and 4) liners are machined with a flat which is, generally, the weak spot.

The 21 is what my father and I call a lazy mans car. loads of torque and you dont have to be right up the revs to get the power. I think you are going to lose that characteristic.

 

[administrator]

sayin it stinks of fuel isn't really a good measure and surely indicates a very rich section of map!

Haz , that comment comes across as quite disrespectful. Jo and Henk know there beans. I am sure it wast just a case of put a cam in and fuel it to death. I suspect there was a little more logic in there.

You are correct on the split due to maps front. Noone maps over here. Unless you get after market

Jos power figures have been witnessed by around 10 UK bods at FCS.

 

[-Jo-]

i'm gonna show you something...3 bar boost on std hg, and also look at the graph on the computer.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jo21turbo?gl=NL&hl=nl#p/u/55/Fm8L3NV0sas

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Haz , that comment comes across as quite disrespectful. Jo and Henk know there beans. I am sure it wast just a case of put a cam in and fuel it to death. I suspect there was a little more logic in there.

I'm not bothered mate , let me put is this way...std ecu is limited and it aint standalone. If you can do it better, please show me. I'm waiting for almost 10 years now but so far...i'm not impressed. If the above line is RTOC mentality, sorry, not my thing. Over here whe discus matters, 21toc mentality, without knowing it all better and see who got the biggest dick.....

Good luck !

 

[dansam]

i'm gonna show you something...3 bar boost on std hg

Hahaha nice one mate

 

[Haz]

Haz , that comment comes across as quite disrespectful. Jo and Henk know there beans. I am sure it wast just a case of put a cam in and fuel it to death. I suspect there was a little more logic in there.

You are correct on the split due to maps front. Noone maps over here. Unless you get after market

Jos power figures have been witnessed by around 10 UK bods at FCS.

firstly, i'll apologise if the comment was read wrong, i wasn't commenting on henk of jo, just generalising but i am interested in afr's but they have yet to be mentioned.
if a car isn't mapped properly then they are bound to blow up at some point, but again there is liitle information shared on here either through not knowing or just not wanting too??
i'm not doubting what has been done, just asking if there are other ways as in tuning there always is and yes, although i didn't realise til i joined, no one maps over here. . yet.


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Split liners is clearly down to the map, as the standard management cant read above one bar! so the car runs lean on anything over standard boost. Not to mention that the outter (1 and 4) liners are machined with a flat which is, generally, the weak spot.

The 21 is what my father and I call a lazy mans car. loads of torque and you dont have to be right up the revs to get the power. I think you are going to lose that characteristic.

of course its the map. not sure what your saying about running lean above std tho, my car is std and afr's are reading low 11's at 17psi so plenty of fuel for more boost but a i'm not using det cans as yet i didn't ty any further. it is a lazy car with loads of torque and fun to drive, i like the complete package. i will loose the characteristics but if i enjoy drining it more and its something i want to try i dont see why i shuldn't try? alot of 5 owners love std gtt turbo's, but again, loved the way the car handled etc but wanted i different way the power was delivered. exactly why i'm building my 11 looking standard with a clio 172 engine, large turbo, adaptronic and other mods to have a modern, reliable 300+bhp at 1bar boost with more on the secondary map for events.
again, not trying to cause arguements, each to their own. i could have just built it and tried without joining the club but thought i'd get some pointers, share my interest, plans and progress with other like minded people

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i'm gonna show you something...3 bar boost on std hg, and also look at the graph on the computer.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jo21turbo?gl=NL&hl=nl#p/u/55/Fm8L3NV0sas

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------



I'm not bothered mate , let me put is this way...std ecu is limited and it aint standalone. If you can do it better, please show me. I'm waiting for almost 10 years now but so far...i'm not impressed. If the above line is RTOC mentality, sorry, not my thing. Over here whe discus matters, 21toc mentality, without knowing it all better and see who got the biggest dick.....

Good luck !

i'm impressed with what you've acheived jo, which is why i'm very interested in what you have done, hence the questions. i take it the boost hose popped off? nice graph tho. was there another run? do you have more information please? that looked like it only revved to 6k? whats the afr at wot?
i realised the map load points would be alot less than standalone so the map wouldn't be as smooth, but is alot cheaper.
i'm not saying i'll come to anywhere near to what you have done, but willing to try as far as my budget allows.
the comment was not ment in a bad way, just that if there's a strong smell of fuel then its rich. i realise that due to the std ecu, mapping has to be compomised, but mentioning afr's on through the revs and on boost would explain why.

 

[administrator]

firstly, i'll apologise if the comment was read wrong, i wasn't commenting on henk of jo, just generalising but i am interested in afr's but they have yet to be mentioned.
if a car isn't mapped properly then they are bound to blow up at some point, but again there is liitle information shared on here either through not knowing or just not wanting too??
i'm not doubting what has been done, just asking if there are other ways as in tuning there always is and yes, although i didn't realise til i joined, no one maps over here. . yet.

No worries ! Glad we cleared that up

Few have had remaps. Fewer are running adaptronic Haz - thats the only reason.

AFAIK there is only Jonboy + Jo who have had maps done. Dave + Rabson on adaptronic. Agreed that there are always different ways of tuning and its good to have new bloody going down the tuning route - but the thing is you are trying combos that have been tried and tested and binned off. We can show you what does work and what goes bang. You can improve your motor by bunging on the mods that are mentioned and getting a scofftstic maps written for you particular setup - but ultimately you are going to end up with tried and tested route with a different map.

I think the thing thats getting Jos goat is that you mention budget but then cup cam or along those lines. They are as far apart the cost spectrum as a 1 bed flat in Byker and a Penthouse in Mayfair.

For a budget - go for the route jo said a while back. The 803s t34 etc. If you are feeling flush get some pistons and liners in there and get funky with a replica cup cam. Its kinda all or nowt on the 21t. You cant really get cheap performance parts - there just isnt or wasnt the development base years ago.

If you go down the budget route with the 803s and a decent map you should have a rapid 21turbo , if you have deep pockets you will have a porsche beater.

 

[danb]

dont forget Phil and Johnspin

 

[-Jo-]

Phil got one bad ass motor, that i can assure you.

 

[danb]

agree with you Jo....

when you look at Phil's spec its quite modest compared to, for example, Rabson ornament.

 

[Haz]

No worries ! Glad we cleared that up

Few have had remaps. Fewer are running adaptronic Haz - thats the only reason.

AFAIK there is only Jonboy + Jo who have had maps done. Dave + Rabson on adaptronic. Agreed that there are always different ways of tuning and its good to have new bloody going down the tuning route - but the thing is you are trying combos that have been tried and tested and binned off. We can show you what does work and what goes bang. You can improve your motor by bunging on the mods that are mentioned and getting a scofftstic maps written for you particular setup - but ultimately you are going to end up with tried and tested route with a different map.

I think the thing thats getting Jos goat is that you mention budget but then cup cam or along those lines. They are as far apart the cost spectrum as a 1 bed flat in Byker and a Penthouse in Mayfair.

For a budget - go for the route jo said a while back. The 803s t34 etc. If you are feeling flush get some pistons and liners in there and get funky with a replica cup cam. Its kinda all or nowt on the 21t. You cant really get cheap performance parts - there just isnt or wasnt the development base years ago.

If you go down the budget route with the 803s and a decent map you should have a rapid 21turbo , if you have deep pockets you will have a porsche beater.

really?? so are alot just got set chips and other bits and playing safe with the boost then?
i realise that there's set routes, i'm trying to find out why what i want to do wont work, without all the information i cant really make a decision. the vidoes with power runs etc say alot tho, will be havin a nose through if you dont mind if my combo has been tried down to each detail, exact spec and map or close, which i can get all the details to compare to show evidence then yes i'd do the common one. just not enough information.
lol, good comparison. the cam could be an expensive item. scoff knows what sort of profile i'll need to run so once i've seen spec's i'll know if there's anything similar and then know what sort of price and if its out of the budget, or if someone has had enough and selling one for less price than a regrind then back in budget, you never know.
regards the 803's, if jo knows what fuel pressure they are at idle, and which regulator is used (so i can find out the increase on boost pressure), and what afr's are at idle, crusing and wot (using which ecu) i would understand more, til then ??. my 5 loved porsches, can't loose it or get past it, whichever way it was lol, but limited to 132mph
not quite a porsche but a dissappointed mr turbo owner lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXt8V_uLTjk

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dont forget Phil and Johnspin

only problem is that profiles dont have spec and photos, i'm new to the forum and can't see much in threads, bar a few nice projects, but not like what i'm doin. also they havent posted anything up, dont want to mither people via pm.

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agree with you Jo....

when you look at Phil's spec its quite modest compared to, for example, Rabson ornament.

lol nice phrase! hmmm, maybe members like that may be wanting some space back