Broken renault. Garage dispute...

[Lanky]

Here's the short version and I shall elaborate as further questions are asked:-

This week! Car stops on A50, have to coast to a layby while engine is running fine.
Garage I bought it from in september takes it in. Eventually diagnosis is the gearbox's "main shaft is bent". Perhaps he means input shaft. The gearbox hasn't been opened. He says and with advice from his "mechanics" next door that it is due to a lack of lubrication.
I request a report on at least 2-3 occasions over the phone, meanwhile for the last 3 days he has been pushing me to find a gearbox somewhere to replace it with so he can push on with the repairs, and I quote:-

I'm doing you the best help I can here, getting it done at trade prices, no profit whatsoever, my time. We need to press on, everybody needs this out the way, the renault specialist garage needs it out the way and I'm sure you want it back on the road

Eventually today he clicks about what I am exactly asking for in terms of a proper report. I have to explain a report includes a written account, photographic evidence and a conclusion, amongst other things.
I also state I wish not to proceed with buying another gearbox off any old eBay, or proceeding with any expenditure, as part of my rights. I do not want to spend money until I see the conclusion. So he then got arsey about that. And he's decided now that the report will just prove his view on what caused it to fail.
I don't mean to be arrogant, but it's me against a salesman and 2 mechanics. I am best qualified to question the failure. My other point is they haven't even opened the gearbox yet. Plus lack of lubrication doesn't prove it was something that wasn't already there when I bought it!

Bah. So it will probably end up with a crappy poorly written, vague report, somewhat geared in his favour. Then I will contest it and I will have to get a report from elsewhere.
I am exercising my rights in my best opinion, with advice from consumer direct. The argument of "7,000 miles is a lot" is not correct in my view - I've been using it to drive to and from work. I haven't been anywhere adverse in it, and the mileage is not excessive compared against the UK average of 10-14,000 miles a year.

Does anybody have opinions, advice?

Much obliged

 

[Neal R19]

What car is it?

If I'm understanding you right, this whole thing just boils down to whether it failed because of lack of lubrication or some pre existing mechanical fault?

Either way, what sort of warranty do you have on the car from the garage?

tbh with no overriding warranty if you've had it nearly 6 months then I'd be inclined to say it's fair enough, shit happens, how long should the garage be responsible?

 

[Lanky]

What car is it?

If I'm understanding you right, this whole thing just boils down to whether it failed because of lack of lubrication or some pre existing mechanical fault?

Either way, what sort of warranty do you have on the car from the garage?

tbh with no overriding warranty if you've had it nearly 6 months then I'd be inclined to say it's fair enough, shit happens, how long should the garage be responsible?

Consumer direct have been very clear in saying that within 6 months it is the trader's responsibility to prove the failure was something that was from a cause after the purchase. I'm entitled to a report, which is completely reasonable so I see no reason right now why he should get arsey. If he was trying to go full steam ahead on my wallet and I then slow hom down its not my fault.
Even for lack of lubrication, what points it to be something so urgent like that? A weeping seal would eventually drain enough oil out over a long time.

It's an 03 laguna 1.9 dCi.
His argument is 2nd hand cars are a risk you play. I said if I wanted that I'd have bought a cheaper car from a private seller.

 

[Neal R19]

Well fair enough if that's the rules then carry on but it's probably going to get messy.

 

[Lanky]

Yeah, I just want to see the cause of the failure, can't be called unreasonable for that surely.
Sounds like he will drag it out in his belief that the risk is down to me, which of that is the case he's not fully understood his liabilities as a trader.

 

[minichapperz]

Certain that this is gonna get arsey!

 

[Lanky]

You mean the trader?

I'm not looking forward to it dragging on as my car is currently put of my reach. But I do have other information which pretty much settles it, fingers crossed if it came to it then that would be of use.

 

[blaze]

Where is the car? At the garage i presume?

I would also say that this is going to get messy, people always clam up when it gets down to who's legally responsible.

If it were me, and i'd decided to go down this route, i'd write a letter explaining everything as you see it (that you want a written report / 6 month responsibility / average mileage /etc) and explain clearly that if he cannot provide this, then you'll arange for the car to be collected and taken to another garage for an independant inspection.

That should gee him up a bit, he's unlikely to want anyone else involved as it may get expensive for him if he's proven responsible for any costs incurred.

It's unlikely that's he's unaware of his responsibilities, more likely he just wants to fit a replacement box as quickly and cheaply as possible and get it off his task list.

 

[Lanky]

It is, and he made promises without my consent to where the car went to a renault "specialist" (of whom I know nothing of yet, I may ask), that i would be providing a gearbox on saturday, which I had never confirmed. So is now angry that I haven't gone along with that plan.
Messy it might, but I've got firm belief that regardless of liability anyway (which as it's within 6 months it is his) something was already there to have caused this to fail like it did. He's claiming a lack of lubrication is the cause of a bent input shaft, with backup from two mechanics who couldn't diagnose it was even the gearbox at fault when they checked the car. They've not even opened the box yet! He's been pushing me until friday to go out on my own expense to replace the gearbox, yet he reminds me of his years in the trade he has full understanding of the law. So he's either wrong or lying to me.

Thanks for the advice - very similar to what I've been given by a law professional and consumer direct. I'm waiting for the report, and as an engineer down to the bone, I'm purely curious in what would cause a failure like that anyway, and when there is unequivocal proof whichever cause it was, we can move on and the car will get repaired!
After the last phone call I think communication has gone away from reasonable discussion over the outcomes, so I think if he fails to comply with the rules (i.e. get me a full report or fix the car) then he will be receiving a letter of complaint.

 

[Neal R19]

Well let's say it was caused by lack of lubrication - that would imply an oil leak. You'd have to argue the toss as to whether or not it was leaking when you bought it.

 

[Lanky]

The report would prove where it was leaking from. A weeping seal for example more than likely - to leak enough to cause the gearbox to fail would happen over a while and be almost certain that it was already there.
If its caused by a stone or rock damage that was recent then I'm willing to accept that.

I'm sure there will be a lot of disagreement over the cause, but id rather prove my innocence and fight my rights than just hand over several hundred quid to avoid a bit of a mess caused by an unwilling trader.

As i say I want to see the report, it will show what's happened here and it can move along.

 

[Reno5gtt]

Is he a trader? I'd go and poor nitromors over all his cars. sounds like a right prick...

Good luck with the fix anyway.

 

[Samuel Scott]

Sorry to hear of your dispute. Without being patronising, and it might have gone too far already, but try and sort things out with the garage owner as reasonably and amicably as possible - threatening him with legal action should only be used as a last resort, it only serves to get people's back up. Otherwise relations will break down sharpish, he could dig his heels in and exercise his legal rights too.

Judges in the small claims courts are far more clued up and worldly-wise and see things in shades of grey, if you like, when compared to the telephone staff at consumer direct. The judge won't merely look at the length of time and mileage covered since you bought the car but he or she will have regard to many other factors:

Firstly the car is not a two year old BMW 5-series which you paid £30,000 for but a 9 year old Renault (it's generally assumed that modern cars have a 10 year planned life span) where any significant mechanical repair is unlikely to make economic sense, and effectively you assumed this risk when buying a car of that age and relatively small value, notwithstanding any extended or "statutory" warranty you got with the car.

Secondly he or she will look to see that BOTH parties have acted reasonably in all the circumstances and assess matters accordingly. From your story it seems that your garage recovered your vehicle for you, acknowledged diagnosis was beyond their capabilities and took it to a "Renault Specialists"- so far they seem to have acted as one would expect.

No judge would expect a garage to stump up the cost of brand new gearbox out of Renault crate for a 9 year old car, so finding a used part is a fair route to take. However, a sealed gearbox is an unknown quantity, as indeed it has proved in your case, so I can see why your garage seems to be steering you to supply the replacement, and seemingly they will install it FOC. In strict legal terms they may be compelled to source and fit a gearbox, but who's to say that the replacement won't fail a few months down the line, which will be like a red rag to a bull for you. It does seem sensible that as the owner you can put in a couple of hours on Ebay finding a gearbox that would seem to be from a decent car, perhaps one being broken privately, where you've got a better chance that once fitted your car's woes will be solved, rather than from the nearest dodgy scrappie that the garage can find.

I am being alarmist here, but envisage a scenario when the garage forges ahead and sources and fits a replacement gearbox, but upon inspection finds something unrelated amiss that must be rectified before completing the work, say for instance your clutch is heavily worn or you need all new selector bushes and forks - general wear and tear which they are not liable for, these are supplied and fitted - and then you refuse to pay for these additional parts. The garage can then exercise a lien over your vehicle which means they are not obliged to release your car until you have paid, you will then be charged weekly storage by them at a reasonable rate, and if you continue to refuse to pay then after a set time they can legally dispose of your car.

I understand you're mightily miffed and you want to exercise your legal rights, but seriously this is not worth getting into legal wrangles over as your case is not as strong as you might believe - consider the cost to get your case rolling and heard in court, legal advice, your time preparing for court, and what people always forget, the stress involved...

With respect, I would advise that you cease pestering (as he will see it) him for a report - it's an old Renault transmission - who's to say what went belly up!

Prime yourself with a good cup of tea, then get over to the garage and ask to sit down for 5 minutes with the garage owner, outline how you want to resolve the problem and state the best outcome for you and then listen to his take on it calmly on how far he is prepared to go in getting you up and running and his reasoning behind it. Try and reach an agreement where you both know what's expected of you and within what timeframe.

At the back of your mind be aware of the fact that he in all honesty probably knew nothing at all about the possibility that a fault was lying dormant in your gearbox, he sold you the car in good faith, he's probably not a swindler and he's probably got a family and is finding business is tough like most are.

Find out the exact part code / model number or whatever of the gearbox you need and get cracking finding one that you think looks like the safest bet to fit. So this gearbox might cost you £100 or so, but we all take a knock sometimes. Hopefully the garage will fit it competently and promptly and at no charge, you can be on your way and the matter will be closed.

 

[blaze]

Thats some mighty fine advice right there.

 

[Lanky]

Whoa, long extended advice indeed, thanks.

Sort of been through those motions since my last post as it is. Wouldn't want to nit pick on the things that aren't quite as you've assumed, but I have come through it with him in the end, and I did indeed wait for the report. He got a bit tetchy about doing that though. The only time it went away from amicable to be honest.

It was a weeping driveshaft seal that eventually drained the gearbox, causing the input bearing to seize and break the shaft. Telltale signs of something that was already there and by that vision the trader made his point as i guessed he would "well, no-one can tell how long its been likke that can they...."
A weeping driveshaft seal goes over time.

Weve had long conversations over it since. He is taking the value i haggled off the car, off me plus money for the parts to fit a new clutch, and I made sure he fixes the other issues that seem to have been there since it started (door not lockign for instance). He sourced the gearbox from ebay, but at least he's been and bought it.
I'm not 100% happy, but to see it another way I've got a new clutch fitted and the gearbox fixed for lower than standard garage prices. Not totally in my favour but at least i've not been left with a major bill.
Still waiting to collect it though....