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Discussion in 'Modifying' started by mrdini, Dec 31, 2012.

Discuss Turbo in the Modifying area at TurboRenault.co.uk.

  1. mrdini

    mrdini Well-Known Member

    I'm quite Keen to try a t2 turbo on my Gordini turbo or maybe a t25 just looking to do away with the laggy driving experience as I think I would enjoy the car more if it boosted like a gt turbo does! I know you may think why not buy a gt turbo but I am sticking with mk1 Gordini I just want to try the smaller turbo experience see what happens,,, I don't know much about turbos but I'm thinking I may either need to weld a t2 flange onto my ex manifold and work from there finding the most suitable rear end and making up a down pipe type extension to meet the exhaust,,,,,,,,,,,,or as ideally I'd like it to be as simple as possible could a t2 front end and midd section be fitted into my original t3 back end to transform to smaller highbrid????? It's the rear section of the original turbo that would cause the headache to copy so if it could be used would be very handy,,, I'm under the impression it's unique to the car so no smaller option available, anyone have any ideas!!!!!!! Thanks
  2. sparkie

    sparkie Well-Known Member

    i am assuming you are running a blow through system?

    have you thought about the metro turbo t3? spec is as follows:

    MG Metro Turbocharger
    Model No. TBO342
    Part No. 466564-0002
    Turbine Trim - 69 Turbine A/R 0.25
    Compressor Trim - 40 Compressor A/R 0.42

    i have a feeling the exhaust A/R on the gordini is bigger...i.e laggier?
  3. sparkie

    sparkie Well-Known Member

    infact i'll just copy and paste the whole post on the metro turbo guide i just found:

    There isn?t a great deal of option with regards to "easily" switching the standard MG Metro T3 turbo.

    MG Metro Turbocharger
    Model No. TBO342
    Part No. 466564-0002
    Turbine Trim - 69 Turbine A/R 0.25
    Compressor Trim - 40 Compressor A/R 0.42

    Don?t forget the turbo fitted to the MG Montego & Maestro is basically the same fitment, and just uses a different boost solenoid to raise a higher boost pressure as standard. Although I don?t know anyone out there that has actually used one of these so can?t comment on their suitability with the metro engine

    Another suitable turbo charger that appears to work, and is a direct replacement, is the T3 Turbo fitted to the escort rs turbo. 2 variants are available, the first fitted to the series 1 is cooled purely by the lubrication oil (as per the metro item), while the series 2 is water cooled for better longevity. See details below

    Escort RS Turbo Series 1
    Model No. TBO345
    Part No. 466644-0001
    Turbine A/R 0.36

    Escort RS Turbo Series 2
    Model No. TBO355
    Part No. 466944-0001
    Turbine A/R 0.36

    The advantage these turbo's seem to offer is in the slightly larger A/R in the turbine housing causing a shift in when peak boost is reached, in this case higher up the rpm range. Incidentally the original metro turbine housing (A/R 0.25) is no longer available and most recons will come with the A/R 0.36 effectively giving you a turbo identical to the Escort RS Turbo.

    Hybrid T3?s are commonly available and allow for a more robust (360 deg thrust bearings etc) turbo that can handle more boost, and flow more air efficiently. The original T3 turbo has been proven over the quarter mile and on the track by the true turbo mini owners out there, and has seen some large power figures indeed! Infact the larger T3 turbo is potentially more suited to the track car where revs are kept high allowing it to remain on boost much more of the time!

    With some additional work it is possible to fit other turbo?s to your A-series engine, there is a slight trend at the minute to adapt a T2 flanged turbocharger to the original cast exhaust manifold using an adaptor plate which seems to work very well, and has been proven by other people on this site especially on the quarter mile, with the lower inertia compared to the T3 it can spool up very quickly. It must also be realized that by sticking a smaller turbo on the car it will mean the boost will come in sooner but will also tail off sooner compared to a bigger turbo.. There are variations of course with the T2 series of turbo?s , starting with the T2 (Renault 5 GT Turbo & Nissan Bluebird) where the phase 1 wasn't water cooled, while the later phase 2 was water cooled, which leads to T25?s (typical rover tomcat/820 turbo which is what R5 tuners spec as stage 3 turbo & s12 nissan silvia) and T28 (typical s13 & s14 nissan 200sx turbo). It must be realized that just because a turbo can fit, doesn?t make it the right choice!!!!!!! There are lots of variables in a turbocharger that allows it to be tailored in the design phase of an engine, so don?t be surprised that by sticking a turbo off a 2litre car in your 1.3litre mini it will be a bit slow to spool up. Some further part numbers are listed below

    Renault 5 GT Turbo Phase 1
    Model No. TB02??
    Part No.
    Turbine A/R 0.??

    Renault 5 GT Turbo Phase 2
    Model No. TB0235
    Part No. 465367-0001
    Turbine Trim - 58 Turbine A/R 0.35
    Compressor Trim - 49 Compressor A/R 0.48

    Nissan Bluebird (1.8L)
    Model No. TBO210
    Part No. 466370-0019
    Turbine A/R 0.63

    Nissan 200sx (1.8L)
    Model No. TB2525
    Part No. 465795-0003
    Turbine A/R 0.64

    Rover T-Series Turbo (2.0L)
    Model No. TB2555
    Part No. 465199-0003
    Turbine Trim - 64 Turbine A/R 0.49
    Compressor Trim - 60 Compressor A/R 0.48

    Nissan 200sx (2.0L)
    Model No. TB2815
    Part No. 471104-0001
    Turbine A/R 0.??

    People may also of heard about ball bearing turbos, a lot of these have come about through modifying the Garrett T-Series of turbocharger, all of this must be realized as being based on old compressor/turbine technology.

    In the mid to late 90?s Garrett released a new series of turbo charger depicted by the GT prefix, this utilized upto date technology in its design creating turbo?s that flow more air efficiently and are more robust (handle more boost!). Don?t believe the hype that all of these turbo?s are ball bearing cartridges, only the turbo?s with the R suffix carry this arrangement. Note that there has been a slight shift also in the applicability in the range in which Garrett Turbo works for example (according to garrett catalogue)

    GT12 Turbo can flow enough air for 50-130bhp and suits 0.4l to 1.2l
    GT15 Turbo can flow enough air for 100-220bhp and suits 1.0l to 1.6l
    GT20 Turbo can flow enough air for 140-260bhp and suits 1.4l to 2.0l
    GT22 Turbo can flow enough air for 160-280bhp and suits 1.7l to 2.2l
    GT25R Turbo can flow enough air for 170-250bhp and suits 1.4l to 2.2l
    GT28R Turbo can flow enough air for 200-280bhp and suits 1.6l to 2.5l
    GT28RS Turbo can flow enough air for 250-320bhp and suits 1.8l to 2.7l
    GT30R can flow enough air for 350-500bhp and suits 2.0l to 3.0l
    GT32 can flow enough air for 200-420bhp and suits 2.0l to 2.7l

    The list does go on but anything else is severely verging on the large side!!

    A large selection of GT designation turbo?s are available using the T2 flange, and also the T3 flange. So there is scope out there to allow a change of turbo but there will need to be work done to allow the exhaust downpipe to be connected to the turbo exhaust elbow. Although this has been made easier with the increasingly available V-Band connection which allow 2 pieces of prepared pipe to clamped with an almost jubilee clip type arrangement, but perfects a gas tight seal (originally created for sealing reactor vessels!!)

    It would be good to see the recent developments in turbochargers etc to start coming through to the turbo mini scene, so that the results can be witnessed.

    An alternative to the metro cast manifold is to have a custom set of manifolds constructed in either stainless steel or mild steel of some designation.

    A motorsport company called ?mirage motorsport? (web address http://freespace.virgin.net/richj.barnett/index2.htm & tel no 01953 888936) manufacture stainless steel exhaust manifolds that come with a T2 sized flange. The kit was designed to be fitted with a T2 turbocharger from a Renault 5 GT Turbo, or indeed T25 sized turbo. Although the aforementioned GT Turbo unit would make a more obvious choice due to its similar engine capacity compared to the metro.

    These mirage motorsport manifolds also mean there is no need to chop the bulkhead to fit the turbocharger with it being smaller, and a more compact arrangement. This may appeal to people who do not wish to cut there bulkhead. The kit comes complete with an exhaust elbow to fit the T2/T25 (additional work is likely to be required to fit T25 size of compressor housings) series of turbocharger and a 2 ?? downpipe. The kit is not a complete bolt on coversion, and does require some small brackets to be made up, and moving of the waste gate actuator to the hot side of the turbo, along with re-phasing of the waste gate lever due to its close proximity of the bulkhead. Nic (aka greypride) is currently putting the finishing touches to a guide on fitting the mirage kit.

    Hopefully this will answer a few questions to anyone new to the turbo mini scene.

    Note this is my first pass at writing something in-depth(ish) for the site, and would appreciate any constructive feedback
  4. mrdini

    mrdini Well-Known Member

    Interesting thanks, yes blow through ,,,I know the Gordini t3 has .24 on the rear of it ill find its full details out, I remember being told long ago that the metros suffered the lag too, interesting that the mini guys were saying the t3 was usefull on track I would of thought the opposite,,,,I will try to investigate further see what I can come up with it would be nice if something could be done without having to fabricate and alter the whole std setup ideally keeping the back end to exhaust arrangement.
  5. sparkie

    sparkie Well-Known Member

    i used to own a fiat coupe 20v turbo, and the t28 on it was very similar to that used by the gt turbo guys as an upgrade - except that the back end had a circular exit, which i'd imagine you could drill and tap the correct studs into..... - not it you could make the front end smaller - like a rover tomcat size t25, then that could spin up quicker. - the fiat sized turbo was laggy on the gtt - 4k + on boost.
    you would have to weld a conversion plate on, as the conversion joiners you buy on ebay are a bit long.
  6. mrdini

    mrdini Well-Known Member

    I had it in my head that because of the very small sounding .24 rear end on the standard turbo something may be able to be done using just the rear end and changing everything else, I asked this question to one of the turbo company's online and they replied that its the rear end that's causing the lag! So maybe even though the size sounds small, as its a t3 small it's still bigger than what I'm looking to for,,,,,,I'm going to do some more reading try and understand the turbo specs and component compatabilitys more, ,,,,would be nice to have a pile of scrap turbos to sift through and see what could be cobbled together ,,,,,,,SPARKY do you know are t2& t25 flanges the same or not ? I can weld a new flange onto my manifold extension then hopefully have a kind of gt style elbow made up to meet exhaust but it would be great if the flange I weld on would allow me to fit either t2 or t25 for testing ect. Cheers
  7. sparkie

    sparkie Well-Known Member

    T25 and T2 flanges are exactly the same. You might be interested in a Stage 1 gt turbo hybrid, which has a rover tomcat compressor wheel and a std gt turbo exhaust housing and wheel. A 360 degree bearing would also be a good bet.
  8. mrdini

    mrdini Well-Known Member

    Ok the flange thing is good, I think what you mean is what they called a t2/ t25 I had one before, I'm hoping to fill and re drill a std mounting flange rather than chopping off and welding on as I've not welded cast and not sure it's that easy ,,, thx again
  9. sparkie

    sparkie Well-Known Member

    Look at ebay item 290361941711 this is a T3 to T25 adapter ;) bit pricey though...
  10. mrdini

    mrdini Well-Known Member

  11. sparkie

    sparkie Well-Known Member

    looks good!
  12. mrdini

    mrdini Well-Known Member

    After having a little nose to a Saab fan I've been led to believe the gt17 are notoriously unreliable for some reason? Like to fail and don't tolerate boost increases,,,, the Saab guys change them for a different brand which I may have a look at, mmmmm I wonder what the problem is and if all the garrett gt series are pants or just the gt17 which would be odd . Checked out some cast welding stuff and it may be doable to chop and swap flanges or at least worth a shot as I have spare manifold extensions.
  13. mrdini

    mrdini Well-Known Member

    The mini turbo forum guys seem to like the gt17 from the Saab 93-95 amongst others, , I read that these are boosted to 20psi from the factory on some cars and looking at them in pictures I thought they looked fairly compatible , I picked up an earlier t25 of the same fittment pattern and it seems pretty good for shape and the back end heads nicely out of the inner wing hole to marry up with a modified exhaust down pipe so I'm going to rig this turbo up once the engines is built and back in the car,
  14. mrdini

    mrdini Well-Known Member

    saab t25 mock up, fitting this model will allow a choice of a few turbos from the saabs, its 50trim .48ar not sure how this size will pan out, im looking for around 160-180 bhp hopefully this size of turbo will bring the boost in earlier, if so great it was a cheap buy and new.
  15. r5gordini

    r5gordini Moderator

    Hi Richard,

    Very interested in what you've done. Do you think you could post larger photos please? It's a bit difficult to see clearly when the photos are so small!


  16. mrdini

    mrdini Well-Known Member

    Ok Andrew ill try
  17. mrdini

    mrdini Well-Known Member

    I need a downpipe flange and starter pipe now to come off the back of turbo to fix exhaust side of things, having a nose around the Saab 93 items seem thin on the ground ill keep looking but may need to have something like this made up but with a lambda boss added
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