R8 353 Gearbox

[cbx6_79]

Hello!
I see there is a lot of old Renault knowledge on this forum, so I thought I could send out a question
I have a R8 1135 with a 353 gearbox (5 speed). I have had some of theese cars at the late 70's, and as I remember the gearbox was always tagged 353-03.
The one I still have, the gearbox is tagged 353-13. Have checked with the parts catalogue, and see that even 353-33 exist. Is anyone here familiar with the differences bbetween these dashnumbers -03, -13 and -33?
The 353-13 gearbox I have, I got NOS as a spare at the end of the 70's, and it had the later type bellhousing, with the support tube for the thrust bearing.
It also was delivered with the brackets to bolt up the LH and RH side rubber mounts, and make them solid.
Brg Jan from Norway

 

[Adey]

paging @Steve Swan

 

[Steve Swan]

To be Honest, all 353 are more or less the same thing. The gear trains are the same, but the hub tapers will either be early or late type, then there's the bellhousings which can also be early or late and finally final drives, which are either 4.1:1 R8 or 3.3:1 A110 1600. There is also 3.7, 3.9,4.7 as competition options, never fitted as standard. Low suffix numbers are early and high are late, but are not in a definite order. There are region specific variants also, but Europe was all one region for Engines and gearboxes.
It's Renault, so it's French and quirky....
The Clutch release and hub taper changes came in with the R12 about 1968 along with a host of other small production things, but not in a particular order.
Most boxes lose their tags, so you need to open it up and check to know exactly what you have.

 

[cbx6_79]

Thanks Steve for your answer! The reason I know have replaced the gearbox, is I had a loud rumbling noise, most easily noticed on idle, Pressing the clutch pedal, and it disappeared. Opened the gearbox, and found the first bearing on primary shaft toasted. Replaced both fwd and aft bearing on primary shaft, and thougt I was good, but the rumbling is still there. So now the gearbox is back on the table, will see this summer if I get a chance to open it up again and investigate further. I noticed when opening it the last time, the final drive was 83.

 

[Steve Swan]

Yep That's completely dead. Good news is that the bearing is replaceable, unlike newer types where the rollers run direct on the shaft itself
These pics show a late case R10 1300 type with the sloping bottom spine, which has been machined to clear the post '68 re-enforced crownwheel with the pinion bearing moved off centre to compensate for the slightly larger parts on the same centres. This has the late clutch mechanism and will have the later shallower hub tapers.

 

[cbx6_79]

Yep That's completely dead. Good news is that the bearing is replaceable, unlike newer types where the rollers run direct on the shaft itself
These pics show a late case R10 1300 type with the sloping bottom spine, which has been machined to clear the post '68 re-enforced crownwheel with the pinion bearing moved off centre to compensate for the slightly larger parts on the same centres. This has the late clutch mechanism and will have the later shallower hub tapers.

Thanks for this valuable info, Steve. Much appreciated! I might ask you a couple of questions when I open up the gearbox again. Thanks!
Jan

 

[Wheelers Workshop]

Ys ep That's completely dead. Good news is that the bearing is replaceable, unlike newer types where the rollers run direct on the shaft itself
These pics show a late case R10 1300 type with the sloping bottom spine, which has been machined to clear the post '68 re-enforced crownwheel with the pinion bearing moved off centre to compensate for the slightly larger parts on the same centres. This has the late clutch mechanism and will have the later shallower hub tapers.

Hi Steve,
My Late 1960s South African Assembled R8G1135 353 box also has a 13 reference on the tag, and yes the crown wheel is different [larger] and also the pinion which are not far off the R16 10 bolt 385 series sizes we favour for our big hybrid box conversions.
What puzzles me is that the 8 bolt diff carrier still retains the small diameter sunwheel splines which were mainly the achillies heel of all the 353 boxes and later R10 330 ones as well.
My box also has the later machined side cases with the "Shark fin" below and the guided ball bellhousing clutch bearing arrangement.
My other earlier premier 353 box has none of the above and looks weaker in the diff dept as a result, I ran this box with my Dauphine 845cc Gordini unit as std, and expected a failure at any time, even with just 40 bhp, but I have the Hewland Pawl LSD in this box, which arguably is made from better steel parts, Tony Gomis used one in his A110 and said it came in with a bang and eventually sheared the half shaft resulting the the road wheel parting from the car! My Dauphine just shuddered when turning left or right from a standing start, understandably so as the operation of the Hewland is like throwing a screwdriver into a rotating bike wheel to lock it-crude!

cheers
W

 

[Steve Swan]

@cbx6_79 . Dave @Wheelers Workshop has solved the mystery for you. For once, everything I said was correct, your gearbox is late production throughout with an 8x33 final drive, Std R8G
It is the best of the bunch and the only issue with these is the size of the Diff components, that said if you are not competing then it will be just fine. If you could find a 9x34 Final drive it would be an excellent road car box. @Adey if you're watching the e-bay case is flat bottomed but the one in the pic above is the angled spine meaning it is the last production and heavier with a re-enforced end plate.
Every day is a day at School.
I think the continuing noise may be due to the fact that there has been a lot of glassy hard shrapnel gone through the box, this will have marked all the bearings. The Diff bearings are 30207's and easy to obtain from any Bearing Supplier. The pinion and rear double taper should still be obtainable from 123 bearing in France, if not then it's the Alpine Specialists with the attached prices. I would strip the mainshaft and check the running surface of it is ok, esp. under 1st gear (greatest speed difference on the road) and check the bronze rings any hard bits can be removed with a sharp scriber and will improve the Synchromesh on the box.

 

[cbx6_79]

@Steve Swan @Wheelers Workshop . Thanks again for this information. As I see, this gearbox would definetly be worth the effort of trying to rebuilt it again.
I have installed another 5 speed in the car now, with 9x34 final drive. Will use this until I have opened up and investigated the 353-13 box a bit more.
Thanks agin for your information!

 

[cbx6_79]

Hi again! A little update on the progress of the 353-13 gearbox. As mentioned earlier in the trhread, the gearbox had a very noticeable "rumbling" noice, very easy heard espesially when engine was idling. Opened the gearbox early winter 2023, and found the input shaft bearing toast. Replacede the bearings in both ends of the shaft, and reinstalled the box in the car for the summer season 2023. Was silent and good for about 200 km (125 miles) of driving, and then started to rumble again. I drove the car a total of approx 300 km, and removed the gearbox from the car again. Gearbox has been laying around for a while, but opened it up again yesterday. I believed it could be something with the 1. gear bearing on the pinion shaft, but to my surprice the input shaft bearing was toast again . And only after a couple of hundred kilometers!

 

[cbx6_79]

@Steve Swan Just checked what You and Dave at Wheelers Workshop said about the size of the diff/crown wheel assembly of the 353-13 gearbox, and you are absolute right! Tried to drop the diff assy from the -13 gearbox into the housing of a 330 box. It would not go all the way down because the crownwheel made contact with the housing. Have no early 353-03 gearbox available for test, but I asume it is the same as for the 330. The dia of the pinion gear is also larger than the 330.

 

[Steve Swan]

@Steve Swan Just checked what You and Dave at Wheelers Workshop said about the size of the diff/crown wheel assembly of the 353-13 gearbox, and you are absolute right! Tried to drop the diff assy from the -13 gearbox into the housing of a 330 box. It would not go all the way down because the crownwheel made contact with the housing. Have no early 353-03 gearbox available for test, but I asume it is the same as for the 330. The dia of the pinion gear is also larger than the 330.

View attachment 218402

Nice to actually be right about something..... Easy enough job to ease out the case. I do it with a boring head on the mill. Dave @ wheelers workshop uses a die grinder. Bottom of case needs attention and the posts where the M8 bolts clamp the pinion bearing may also need a touch 1.5 mm clearance is enough.

 

[cbx6_79]

@Steve Swan Thanks for your information, much appreciated! I also wonder if you or someone out there with long experience with theese Renault gearboxes could help me identify my last purchase. I got hand on a box that is said to be from a R5 Alpine (Gordini in the UK?). Have never worked on or owned a R5 Alpine, so not familiar to me. In case a 5 Alpine box, is that what is named BV 385? Adding a few pics of the gearbox, and thanks in advance!

 

[Steve Swan]

That is a R5 A or G 385 5speed Mid-Later production due to the later type Differential Ring nuts. It may be a Suitable donor for a conversion gearbox depending on the type of Topshaft bearing it has. You won't know that until you open it up.

 

[cbx6_79]

Ok, thanks Steve. Beeing a 385 was what I hoped for. Will open it up in a couple of weeks, and see how it looks inside. Plan was to use it as a donor if it could be suitable.
Thanks again for your reply!

 

[Wheelers Workshop]

Ok, thanks Steve. Beeing a 385 was what I hoped for. Will open it up in a couple of weeks, and see how it looks inside. Plan was to use it as a donor if it could be suitable.
Thanks again for your reply!

Hi both, do I sense a potential big box conversion in the ether?
As a small observation, the photo from above is showing a crude gasket between the 5th end casing and the main box, so I deduce that its been previously opened up at some stage. Worth checking its internals carefully though.
Good Luck with it.
Dave

 

[cbx6_79]

@Wheelers Workshop Hello Dave! Thanks for the observation! I will try to get the 385 gearbox disassembled in a couple of weeks time. I am a rookie with theese things, so it may take some time Will check up the internals as good as I can, am i lucky it is good one, but it might also be junk The plan for it was to convert a 330 box, but will see if it is a too big project for me. Got my hand on the 385 gearbox last fall. They are very hard to get here in Norway, so when i had the chanse I jumped on it. I might regret if it is junk

 

[cbx6_79]

Hi again. Seems like Dave @Wheelers Workshop was right. Gearbox has been opened and I found the casing broken, see photo. Not sure how they managed to destroy the casing at the support for the shift forks shafts But did not plan to use the casing anyway. It seems though @Steve Swan , that the bearing on the input shaft (between 4. and 5. gear) is very different from the 353 shaft bearing. Does not seem like that shaft will drop in to a 330 casing. Would be interested in hearing your opinions, not suitable as a donor (without extensive work) ?

 

[Steve Swan]

The casing thing is a classic case of someone trying to dismantle it, who does not know how to do it. The box is the later bearing type which does not work with the 330 case. The shaft would need to be machined down and a means to fit the earlier type bearing on. This has a larger diameter, than the shaft, so a spacer of some kind made up, or a bearing found with the correct inner diameter for the late shaft and correct outer diameter for the 330case. I don't know if this is possible. The other option is to find another donor, like a 395 and swap over all the gears, a menace, but I have done this before.

 

[cbx6_79]

Thanks @Steve Swan for this information. Seems machining the shaft and making a bushing might be an option, but since I do not have access to a machine shop it seems unlikely. Needs some time to reconsider putting this project back to the shelf Thanks again!