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Liners

Clarkey

Well-Known Member
Peoples thoughts please on my options for liners on the new build.
My old steel liners are damaged from being wire rung. Skim them and the block...
OE liners compared to pattern ones. Will be using my forged pistons and rods. (Only things to survive from old engine).
I have also found some cast liners which are supposed to be stronger than standard.
 
If you skim the block and liners down, how much do you need to skim by? If the piston sticks out of the top of the liner it'll clatter the head if you're not careful.

What power are you after? Do you need steel liners? If you do you should probably buy new ones, otherwise stick with OE or pattern ones. I don't think it really matters which of those 2, they all have to meet a standard.
 
o.e liners should be fine, unless you're running crazy boost. Re-use your forged pistons & a new set of Total Seal rings, and you'll be laughing.

If you're still not sure, and don't want to go down the steel liner route, cast/graphite based ones should be a happy medium.
 
Thanks guys,
Not sure if I "need" steel liners. I bought an engine which had them in and used them ever since.
We hope to be running around 220bhp, which we made last year @ 17 psi.
Any experience with pattern liners, I heard oe are better.
 
I have opted for the spherodile cast liners, for strength and durabilty, they do not wear the rings as much as steel liners

Note from the suppliers

http://www.mespiecesauto.com/


"fact for liner spheroidal is very specific, many reseller tells that they sell spheroidal but there is many specification to check :

1st : you have absolutely to get certification of material. We produce these liner, so when we cast we use French Standard call FGS ( fonte graphite spheroidal = spheroidal cast iron), in that standard you have many quality GS100 to GS1000, but after GS700 it quasi impossible to obtain quality because material reaction move a lot and we cant control it. That's why we decide to produce GS700 certified. Many reseller dont know which material they are selling, many told that is GS800 but it's fake we have test some sample few years ago and no one was correct. Moreover it's very strange when professionnal cast liner and dont get certification, because casting factory need standard to know which material you need.... so that's impossible ! You can see on attached file difference between cast iron original and official spheroidal liner, cracking stopping but spheroidal of carbon, but need to be sure of material

2sd : Second problem is grinding , because GS liner is very hard and you need very professionnal material for grinding because hardness is so important that standard material is not enough, and then grinding is not enough deep
then oil dont stay on liner and after you got problem. ( It happened to our customer Bozian racing he was using bad quality of liner and have problem after 2 weeks, now he runs with our liner for many monthand push 1.8 bar inside).


In france we supply Ferry developpement, Bozian etc...
http://www.bozian-racing.com/04_common/liens.html ( you can see our name in their link we supply many parts to them for 5 Turbo)"
 
I don't know if these come with any certification, but I'd be interested to see if there are any real gains.
http://www.cgbmotorsport.net/liner-westwood-ductile-cast-iron-set-of-four-1348-p.asp

I think we can accept that most cracked Liners are the result of a poor tune, but lets say the std Liners can hold 100 psi and the poor tune creates a momentary pressure of 1000 psi. If the new ductile Liners are three times as strong (300 psi), they still won't save you from a poor tune? (figures are not real, just for the example).

Without some kind of data logging, it's hard to tell if the Liner has in fact split due to poor tune or just high boost.

I think now that we have a few EFI C1Js in the club, it will be interesting to see if split Liners will be as common?.....
 

They are considerably stronger- i've never known anyone split a steel or ductile iron liner. You will however split an OE cast one even when it's tuned.... @la21t managed to do so on an EFI Parts tuned, Adaptronic managed 21....although conditions were extreme....150mph flat out on a hot french road up the arse of an RS6 at 27psi of boost. I suspect it would have failed anyway and just spat the head gasket out had he been on steel liners, but then a HG is easier to fix and better a HG than melting a piston.

I wonder what our actual final combustion pressures are. This graph gives an idea of the pattern of the 4-stroke cycle but i'd imagine we are well over 1000psi FCP.

Cylinder-Pressure-Lrg.gif
 
Thinking back to my materials science days (a looooong time ago) I think graphitic ductile iron is about three times the tensile strength of cast. Annealed ductile iron can be bent, twisted or deformed without fracturing. I think ductile is popular in diesels too as they have huge cylinder pressures, commonly 245bar (over 3600psi).
 
I think all the liners are very strong. The cast liners have imperfections in the material which holds oil to help lubricate the rings, the steel liners have less imperfections so require more lubrication and benefit from the total seal rings.
Something needs to go seriously wrong in order to crack a liner, and if it does go wrong you are just as likely to crack an expensive one as easily as cheap one. I have used standard liners at 30psi for years without any issues.
 
It's more when you look at the material under a microscope (macro level) as a material the cast liners hold more oil in the surface....I believe this is why the steel liners wear piston rings quicker?
 
It's more when you look at the material under a microscope (macro level) as a material the cast liners hold more oil in the surface....I believe this is why the steel liners wear piston rings quicker?
That and the harder material I would have thought, though I doubt enough to concern us timeframe wise, I don't think anyone with steel liners I know of uses the car as a daily or does starship miles. I've had my Quadra 15 years and done 22k lol....Clio 3.5 years for 18k...yet Frank the Tank (Volvo S60) is 2.5 years and nearly 50k! Even with accelerated wear I doubt it would make much of a difference.

In fact, the engine with Ductile liners i'm building if it lasts 10k i'll be pretty pleased all told LOL
 
I do like these tech discussions. Not rocket science, but interesting all the same.

On some very old engines that you just can't get parts for anymore, like old steam engines etc. They often plate the cylinder walls with Nickel and then machine bore them back to spec. As technology improves, there are more and more plating techniques that are being used, especially in the aerospace industry.
Diamond Like Carbon (DLC) is becoming more and more popular, and in turn the price is starting to come down a bit. DLC offers the high wear resistance properties of super hard diamond, while having a very low coefficient of friction. A guy plated the Cam Followers on his Jag AJ16 engine with DLC and removed all the engine driven accessories. The first time he fired it up, he couldn't get it to idle below 1200 rpm!

I don't think DLC is suitable for cylinder walls of C1J, but the idea may become a reality in the not too distant future?....
 
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