Is the vee underpowered - a look from a different angle

[taipan]

There's been lots of talk over the years about whether the Vee is underpowered or not. Most say no and that even in OEM spec it's still faster than the vast majority of cars on UK roads, some feel yes it is a bit weedy and a few even go about trying to add more power; in a handful of cases, lots more power.

There's no doubt that the lazy V6 has a little more to give but understandably Renault decided that 100bhp per litre was probably asking for warranty trouble.

So then, let's for a while imagine that both turbo charging and supercharging the Vee are mechanically easy modifications as they are on, say, a 182. Or alternatively perhaps imagine that the vee is actually powered by a 2.0T - unthinkable I agree but bear with me.

Basically, I'm trying to assume that adding forced induction or improving the forced induction already present was an easy, relatively low cost (compared to n/a tuning certainly!) venture. Seeing as we're in fantasy land let's also assume that said modifications could be fully reversed back to OEM if desired.

So, assuming the funds to undertake such modifications were available would people go for them? For me, a 350bhp vee with a GT3 RS weight saving approach would be pretty much the perfect car...

 

[Brembov6]

Does sound exciting having a turbo or supercharger but I think a lot more would be mean more cat registered with the weight balance being the same I assume but even more power.

I do agree that the V could have done with more power when you compare it to other cars but the V6 to me anyway the power is very low on the list as to why I love it!

Still cant wait to see what you do :race:

 

[Brett]

If it wasn't for the shoddy gearbox I reckon many more people would have reverted to tuning them which may have eventually seen a bolt on turbo or supercharger kit of some sort. That would have eventually lead to off the shelf conrod and piston upgrades no doubt.
As for the handling I've always defended the car and reckon it would be fine with a good load more power to push it along. Not that it needs it though. People would realise this if they went to the french track days where owners literally cane the sh1t out of them with great effect. One great example of this is a french ph1. Its white with red detailing. To see it on track you'd think its been heavily played with. Especially the way the driver throws it through bends and it motors out of them. Infact its the opposite. It has a fully stripped out interior with 17" track spec tyres, a stock ph1 engine other than exhaust and that's about it. It clearly doesn't "need" anything more to be enjoyed.
What I'm doing with the audi engine and gearbox is largely pointless and even I'd admit that. I'm just building something I want. Not because it needs a ton more hp and a reworked engine layout. Everytime I've drove the car in standard form, whether it be on the road or on track, I've loved it. Its only when something pulls past I think, "I wiish this was a little faster!" or "I wish I could keep up with that around that bend."

 

[Samwilde681]

Theres a supercharged v6 on you tube I think

 

[Matt]

I'd leave as standard as happy as it is. If I wanted a quick car I'd buy a cheaper runaround.

 

[taipan]

Interesting responses already :approve:

 

[Big Iain]

If the arse falls out of the market on prices for a vee I'd consider an engine change, What Brett is doing would be right up my street, maybe even a 350Z lump? I wouldn't throw money at the standard engine though.

 

[Alpinestars]

I honestly think you can have too much power for the road, which makes some very quick cars far less accessible and enjoyable as you might think. The more cars I drive, the more I believe less is more. Totally accessible power and handling vs power is a lot more fun than a fast car more of the time.

 

[Kett]

I think the threads from Graham (ex-RUK) and MikeT (supercharged Vee) highlight the problems associated with tuning.
Renault designed the Vee to be a comfortable GT and used the generic parts bin to reduced costs. Unfortunately, the box/clutch are stinkers and can give-up without extra loading demands.

My ideal Vee would be using a trophy drive chain and extensive aluminium body frame/panels. I think this is roughly where Max was going - but it apparently was a bridge too far.
Mike Taylor's Vee was permanently chewing up components - so Brett's project is a far more practical approach.
Personally, I'd be terrified of pulling tank-slappers with all that power though...

When I've finished my house in a few years time: I hope to treat my 290bhp iceberg VE02VEE to some hand-fabricated aluminium panels. My guess is that it'll have chewed a few 'boxes by then.

My Acid will remain as Renault intended. The RST remap and BMC CDA do enough.

Best of both worlds - I guess...

 

[taipan]

Totally agree with the notion of useable power. The problem is that - and Brett mentioned this - I feel the Vee's chassis can handle more power; not loads more admitedly, but I think 300bhp - 350bhp coould prove very interesting.

It would be more of a challenge to keep the original engine, but yes, the gearbox would be gone immediately!!

Anyhow. Back on topic and returning to fantasy land. If 350bhp (plucking figures from the number tree here!) was a mechanically proven and attainable goal for the Vee would people go for it? Just chewing the cud I spose.

 

[Big Iain]

I think the threads from Graham (ex-RUK) and MikeT (supercharged Vee) highlight the problems associated with tuning.
Renault designed the Vee to be a comfortable GT and used the generic parts bin to reduced costs. Unfortunately, the box/clutch are stinkers and can give-up without extra loading demands.

My ideal Vee would be using a trophy drive chain and extensive aluminium body frame/panels. I think this is roughly where Max was going - but it apparently was a bridge too far.
Mike Taylor's Vee was permanently chewing up components - so Brett approach is a more practical approach.
Personally, I'd be terrified of pulling tank-slappers with all that power though...

When I've finished my house in a few years time: I hope to treat my 290bhp iceberg VE02VEE to some hand-fabricated aluminium panels. My guess is that it'll have chewed a few 'boxes by then.

My Acid will remain as Renault intended. The RST remap and BMC CDA do enough.

Best of both worlds - I guess...

Did you notice much from a map?

 

[Kett]

Did you notice much from a map?

Not really, but OEM was always a bit lumpy when pulling from standstill.
The remap was the motoring-equivalent to a 'shot of espresso'...

 

[Lankan]

I am not a fan of huge amounts of power, but driveability and handling are important, but agree it is a pity Renault did not get 100 bhp per litre out of its engine.

Although I was never a fan of forced induction, especially turbocharging, I think going forward the use of turbos will be the norm, if that is not the case already. Interesting discussion on whether or not turbocharging is the way forward can be found below, but in the context of classic cars: LINK

I think the Vee (can speak only about the Phase 2) is fine as it is. Apart from the seating/driving position I have no major issues with it as a package. Sure things can be improved without resorting to ripping the engine apart, by adding/changing coilovers, exhaust, manifolds, lightweight flywheel, LSD etc., and remap, that will improve the Vee's driveability (and handling), which is the path I am taking with #002.

So in summary I believe the Vee could handle a bit more power/torque, but with such a fragile gearbox it would not make sense if one does not replace the box whilst upping the power. I would rather do the above, and if really keen, send the Vee through a weight loss programme before contemplating any surgery on its engine. After all nothing to beat a naturally aspirated engine, good on low down torque, all in a lightweight package, with a chassis tweaked to handle well.

To me it is all about how much fun one can have with the package and the above tweaks will give me that fun factor.

 

[taipan]

Good points Dulan. I suppose performance can be approached from two angles; add more power or subtract weight.

The Trophy cars aren't too shabby and they only run what, 285bhp on a good day? Guess they weigh somewhere around a ton so good power to weight ratio there.

I find it interesting that there is still so little by way of performance upgrades. Vee is a niche car yes but an engine is an engine and the approach to tuning is pretty similar no matter what the engine in question is (wankel aside of course!)

Forced induction, particularly turbo, does change the character and responsiveness of an engine and I think the vee would suit a supercharger better however it's all theory really.

I definitely agree that there are plenty of things that should (need!) to be addressed before the engine is touched but it would be nice to know you've got serious poke on tap to go with the amazing look and road presence of the thing. :approve:

 

[Lankan]

Indeed Jon - if at all viable I would always go for weight loss first. This recipe has served Porsche well.

From the ones I own/have owned the 964RS Lightweight, 993RS (albeit the road spec version not the Clubsport) and 968CS are superb examples of this - no electronic trickery and no driver aids except for ABS and LSD. Nothing needs to be done straight from the factory to have an immense amount of fun, both on the road and on track - so yes it is not all about the power. Serioulsy if you get a chance drive a 964RS or 993RS and see for yourself. You don't need bags of power to get the thrills. Of course, over cook it and they, in particular the 964RS, will spit you into the scenary in a flash. That is the challenge I relish, not to go very fast in a straight line.

The Vee could be similar fun if only its engine was mounted lower in order to lower the Vee's centre of gravity. If this can be achieved I am sure the fun factor would be similar. However, don't think this is possible since the engine is quite a tall unit, or is it....?

Re your point below, does heat management not come into the equation especially if you use forced induction, which may explain why there aren't many options available?

I find it interesting that there is still so little by way of performance upgrades. Vee is a niche car yes but an engine is an engine and the approach to tuning is pretty similar no matter what the engine in question is (wankel aside of course!)

Having said all of the above, I have to confess that my favourite Porsches are the 934 and 935 racers, which of course are Turbos! So there you go..... :rollseyes:

 

[Jamesv6]

When I'm doing 70 mph the Vee feels just as fast as my daily runner Kia thing. I once believed more power meant more stone chips, they are just bigger chips.

 

[V6 2HOT]

A vee in terms of 0-60 1/4mile etc is about the same as a Ford Sierra rRS500 Cosworth. It amazing how what is considered fast changes over time and generations. It would have been nice to have 300bhp, a slighter lighter engine to improve front/rear weight balance and lighter overall which would ultimately give that extra little kick the vee needs to be classed as 'fast' .
The most important thing which has been stated by others is usuable power. No point in having an extra 100hp if it cant be layed down when you need it. An extra usuable 50bhp would have been great. It can hold its own in much more powerful company having been on a few tours but just that little extra (bhp and torque) is needed which is noticeably lacking when trying to go up mountains. Third gear was no good I was having to use 1st gear out of some hairpins.

 

[taipan]

Ah but it's the brevity when getting to 70 that I enjoy James! Could I interet you in some sticky back plastic to remove your stone chip issue? Lol

Dulan: supercharger and turbo have been tried and failed by all accounts - well certainly with the standard engine anyhow. I was thinking more along the line of "simple" known n/a stuff like manifolds, ITBs, heads, cams etc. Even things like remaps are a pretty grey area, albeit not very necessary or worthwhile with a standard car.

I guess the demand simply isnt there and so neither are the profit margins. Shame really as the plethora of RS4 options for instance is mouth watering and leads to some truly spectacular creations!

Nas: Guess ultimately it comes down to the driver!! Raganotti in a standard ph1 would make the car a very different proposition no doubt!!

 

[Dan-v6]

So is a remap, air filter and full exhaust (inc headers) not worth doing?

 

[taipan]

^^^from a performance perspective not really. Maybe 10-15bhp on a good day. Like a really good day.

From a sound and drivability perspective freeing up that engine to really breathe is exactly what is required, which is exactly why I've done it!!!